Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[davek]

The Tories obviously. But that isn't what I was getting at. The NHS front line, as undermanned and under resourced as they are, have performed fantastically during this pandemic.

My issue is that the NHS, as an organisation, is monolithic and that has developed over decades of rule under both Labour and the Tories. It has some brilliant aspects to it, but it also has many faults, such as it's structure, it's poor systems and complete lack of quality IT. In England alone I think there are over 200 Health Trusts, each with half a dozen or more senior executives earning anything between £250kpa and £500kpa depending on where they are. These are invariably medical people. Compare them with a consultants salary of about £80k.

I have many friends and family who work within the NHS and not one of them is complimentary of the hierarchal and bureaucratic structure. Same with the civil service which is on the whole very opposed to change.

The truth is, a different government with a very different political mantra in dealing with this virus, would still have had to rely on the same monolithic permanent government departments and senior scientific and health advisors.

Blair was a Tory. There is no distinction. He was a market led neo-liberal, as was Brown, Cameron, May and now the Murderer.

The NHS 'coped' only by making sure it was not facing a deluge of care home patients - who were left to die in their care homes in order that the Johnson Gang could be able to claim the hospitals weren't overwhelmed.

How on earth you and anyone else can hand that lot any credibility whatsoever is a matter for you and your conscience(s).

 

[davek]

@davek I have often been an adversary and in opposition of some of your opinions but I have to say that, and hindsight is a wonderful thing, that as we have progressed through this mightily challenging time what has become apparent is the total disregard for those countries that were weeks ahead of us in terms of the initial outbreak and now, in terms of results of "opening" for business.

I do not profess to have the answers to much of it but, when Italy was ahead of us we chose to go with Herd immunity and now, with all these countries reporting disturbingly high recurrent rates, we still stick 2 fingers up and ignore the evidence in front of us.

Spikes aplenty and yet here we are casting caution to the wind as the stark reality of killing economies is a much worse prospect than people losing their lives.

I have taken umbrage with your use of the word murderer often and disagreed with you but what we are now witnessing as we slowly but surely head back to lockdowns, deaths and NHS struggles is borderline insanity.

I am an advocate of not tanking economies but not at the risk of losing nearest and dearest. I have stuck rigidly to my 12 week shielding and as a family unit we have done what we are told and now to potentially have that all undone by sheer bloody mindedness defies belief.

If the cap fits, wear it.

The murder line is spot on. That's what they've done. Conscious decisions have been made to place the economy above human life. And another conscious decision that's been made (as you know as you live it day in day out) is that 2.5 million shielding have been basically told they are left behind and dont warrant anymore protection. They are non-people destined to live life unseen and unheard on the margins of society.

There will be a massive second wave and, counter to this murderous governments short term intentions, there will be an even greater smashing of the economy when consumer confidence collapses for perhaps years to come.

They have no plan. Never have. 'Take it on the chin' is as good as it gets. That now has been replaced by 'Your patriotic duty is to spend your cash down the pub / high street / restaurant'. It's like being governed by a malevolent Chuckle Brothers tribute act.

They've killed in terms of excess deaths 66,000 so far. They'll end up killing 2 or 3 times that.

 

[brieverton]

@davek I have often been an adversary and in opposition of some of your opinions but I have to say that, and hindsight is a wonderful thing, that as we have progressed through this mightily challenging time what has become apparent is the total disregard for those countries that were weeks ahead of us in terms of the initial outbreak and now, in terms of results of "opening" for business.

I do not profess to have the answers to much of it but, when Italy was ahead of us we chose to go with Herd immunity and now, with all these countries reporting disturbingly high recurrent rates, we still stick 2 fingers up and ignore the evidence in front of us.

Spikes aplenty and yet here we are casting caution to the wind as the stark reality of killing economies is a much worse prospect than people losing their lives.

I have taken umbrage with your use of the word murderer often and disagreed with you but what we are now witnessing as we slowly but surely head back to lockdowns, deaths and NHS struggles is borderline insanity.

I am an advocate of not tanking economies but not at the risk of losing nearest and dearest. I have stuck rigidly to my 12 week shielding and as a family unit we have done what we are told and now to potentially have that all undone by sheer bloody mindedness defies belief.

What will become apparent to both politicians and the general public in time, is that there is no contradiction in the long-run between public health interests and economic interests.

My opinion is that we needed a buffer of an additional 6-8 weeks (recognised by some leading scientists) to move to a situation where covid is not only controlled but eliminated.

It's equally apparent that it was very clearly politically and socially unfeasible to delay lockdown easing any further, but unfortunately this is a virus we are dealing with, it will not adjust to suit business interests.

Far more worryingly, that is a lesson which may yet mean that many more people fall victim to this that simply do not need to.

The pandemic has proven the need for a strong and coherent state-led response to bring fatalities to an absolute minimum.

It's fine being carefree in the pub, but people cannot separate themselves from their responsibility to wider society on this.

That's why lockdown was introduced in the first place, as an enforcement measure. Depending on the majority to do the right thing here isn't good enough.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I dunno, but prior to allowing the family to order stuff online I did check transmission possibility on cardboard, paper and plastic!

How do they compare on the Marmot scale?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I just stand there and scream MURDERER at Postman, who then legs it before delivering the mail, so I don’t seem to have that problem.

Your wife must be having a hard time of it?

 

[roydo]

Depending on the majority to do the right thing here isn't good enough.

So why do I see the majority doing the right thing every day? I firmly believe that the majority of the British public are pretty decent and intelligent folk, and fwiw, I think the current measures, (social distancing, the way shops and pubs etc operate) will be with us for ages yet.

 

[COYBL25]

How do they compare on the Marmot scale?

I much prefer a lightly grilled Red Squirrel myself.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So why do I see the majority doing the right thing every day? I firmly believe that the majority of the British public are pretty decent and intelligent folk, and fwiw, I think the current measures, (social distancing, the way shops and pubs etc operate) will be with us for ages yet.

Whether we like it or now, we've got to figure out a way of living some kind of life with this virus still in circulation haven't we?

 

[COYBL25]

Your wife must be having a hard time of it?

It`s not just her, the lads from Can`t Pay, We`ll Take it Away keep turning up and demanding the keys to my car for unpaid bills.

No idea why.

 

[roydo]

Whether we like it or now, we've got to figure out a way of living some kind of life with this virus still in circulation haven't we?

Yep. Prof JVT said exactly that months ago. The pics on Twitter with packed beaches and streets represent a tiny minority of folk. The vast majority are quite ok with the new normal I reckon. I am.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I much prefer a lightly grilled Red Squirrel myself.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It`s not just her, the lads from Can`t Pay, We`ll Take it Away keep turning up and demanding the keys to my car for unpaid bills.

No idea why.

Daub a giant cross on your front door.

 

[brieverton]

So why do I see the majority doing the right thing every day? I firmly believe that the majority of the British public are pretty decent and intelligent folk, and fwiw, I think the current measures, (social distancing, the way shops and pubs etc operate) will be with us for ages yet.

I meant in the context of the state/government response. I accept the majority of people are doing their utmost and acting responsibly.

But this situation with pubs etc has to be clamped down on. Covid will be present in large social gatherings where distance cannot be maintained.

Someone there gets the virus, and is say asymptomatic whilst taking public transport the next week. They decide mask wearing does not apply to them, so infect someone vulnerable who must use public transport to get to work.

I'm not saying the government can be an angel everywhere and at all times, but they have a moral duty to do their utmost to protect vulnerable citizens from a killer virus.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yep. Prof JVT said exactly that months ago. The pics on Twitter with packed beaches and streets represent a tiny minority of folk. The vast majority are quite ok with the new normal I reckon. I am.

Those pictures are actually deep fakes produced by the cyberwarfare division of the Chinese secret service

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I meant in the context of the state/government response. I accept the majority of people are doing their utmost and acting responsibly.

But this situation with pubs etc has to be clamped down on. Covid will be present in large social gatherings where distance cannot be maintained.

Someone there gets the virus, and is say asymptomatic whilst taking public transport the next week. They decide mask wearing does not apply to them, so infect someone vulnerable who must use public transport to get to work.

I'm not saying the government can be an angel everywhere and at all times, but they have a moral duty to do their utmost to protect vulnerable citizens from a killer virus.

I wrote to Mr Hancock asking him to adorn the sides of pint glasses with a health message similar to those found on cigarette packets. "This pint could kill you selfish [Poor language removed]". Maybe at the bottom of the glass there could be an image of an elderly person bleeding from the eyes to really drive it home. I suspect he's thinking about it as we speak. I'll keep you informed.