Cardiff v Everton. 31st Aug @ 15.00.

[Steve Wigan]

Martinez post match said he thought Barkley needed to be sharper with his final ball today. Sounded like he thought it was the difference between us drawing and winning.

Sky Sports were saying the same on Jeff Stellings show...'Barkley keeping the ball too long' 'Barclay should have passed' etc.

 

[Tubey]

Sky Sports were saying the same on Jeff Stellings show...'Barkley keeping the ball too long' 'Barclay should have passed' etc.

Thing is, the exact same thing can be said of Pienaar and Mirallas, and certainly Osman.

The overall sentiment is right though - the ponderous nature of the midfield is our most alarming issue at the moment.

 

[Jay]

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=122279

 

[Tubey]

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=122279

Little club back in the big time eh?

 

[Tree13]

If they've got two banks of four behind the ball they'd have to have really switched off for our striker to get space around the penalty spot.

You've completely failed to address the point. A shot from twenty-five yards out may well be on target, but that's not a 'chance" in the same way that a ball fed into a striker eight yards out is. We are not creating openings for our strikers. To paraphrase you, if the opposition have two lines of four behind the ball they'd have to be fast asleep for a striker to simply dribble round them all.

As mentioned Jelavic 1 in 20, Kone 1 in 11, Anichebe 1 in 11, Vellios 2 career league goals. If we had to we could play Heitinga or Pienaar in midfield and it wouldn't affect the overall result too much. Having strikers who can't score has a massive impact.

Ok mate. Whatever you say. Oh and with the strikers that can't score thing - there's a difference between missing a hatful of chances and just not having more than two chances a game. This goes back to my earlier point - the stats draw no distinction between a shot from outside the box and a through ball to the striker eight yards out. But one has a vastly better chance of being converted into a goal than the other.

In the top 20 goalscorers last season:

Benteke £7m
Michu £2m
Berbatov £5m
Ba £7m
Lambert £1m
Le Fondre £350k
Fletcher £12m

A midfielder isn't going to stop Jelavic from falling over his own feet or Kone missing open goals. We have Mirallas, Barkley and Pienaar to create the chances. We need somebody more clinical in front of goal to put them away.

Wasn't Kone in the top 20 scorers for last season? Or did that slip your mind?

For the second time, YOU'RE LISTING LAST SEASON'S PRICES. Strikers purchased this summer include the likes of Jovetic, Negredo, Soldado, Van Wolfswinkel and Bony. How much were they? It wasn't that long ago (Kone transfer thread I think) that I suggested Le Frondre as a more sensible alternative to Kone, and the locals tried to lynch me.

Mirallas, Barkley, Pienaar and Osman created very few chances today. True, Jelavic didn't convert either of the two chances he had, but equally, the midfield only created two chances. You're talking like Kone and Jelavic missed a dozen between them and this simply isn't true.

 

[bainesontoast]

You can actually see how many of the attempts came inside the box here: http://espnfc.com/uk/en/gamecast/367454/gamecast.html?soccernet=true&cc=5739

 

[Tree13]

You can actually see how many of the attempts came inside the box here: http://espnfc.com/uk/en/gamecast/367454/gamecast.html?soccernet=true&cc=5739

Yes you can. Six of the thirteen chances were inside the box. That's less than half. Two of the six were Mirallas' headers from set pieces, one was Coleman's effort that went well wide and one was a Barkley attempt from the edge of the area.

Jelavic had two chances all game - thank you for proving my point.

 

[billycopper]

You've completely failed to address the point. A shot from twenty-five yards out may well be on target, but that's not a 'chance" in the same way that a ball fed into a striker eight yards out is. We are not creating openings for our strikers. To paraphrase you, if the opposition have two lines of four behind the ball they'd have to be fast asleep for a striker to simply dribble round them all.



Ok mate. Whatever you say. Oh and with the strikers that can't score thing - there's a difference between missing a hatful of chances and just not having more than two chances a game. This goes back to my earlier point - the stats draw no distinction between a shot from outside the box and a through ball to the striker eight yards out. But one has a vastly better chance of being converted into a goal than the other.



Wasn't Kone in the top 20 scorers for last season? Or did that slip your mind?

For the second time, YOU'RE LISTING LAST SEASON'S PRICES. Strikers purchased this summer include the likes of Jovetic, Negredo, Soldado, Van Wolfswinkel and Bony. How much were they? It wasn't that long ago (Kone transfer thread I think) that I suggested Le Frondre as a more sensible alternative to Kone, and the locals tried to lynch me.

Mirallas, Barkley, Pienaar and Osman created very few chances today. True, Jelavic didn't convert either of the two chances he had, but equally, the midfield only created two chances. You're talking like Kone and Jelavic missed a dozen between them and this simply isn't true.

Ok, so say Kenwright bought Bale or Ronaldo tomorrow. How is he supposed to put it on a plate for Jelavic in a packed penalty area? Jela isn't quick enough to get in front of his marker. He's not going to win aerial tussles. He's not going to outmuscle a defender. He doesn't have the trickery to make a yard of space for himself. He doesn't have the acceleration to run in behind a defender even if he could stay onside. And he doesn't have a rocket shot.

Kone was amongst a number of players that finished on 11 goals.

I don't have a fecking crystal ball, so I can't tell you future prices until someone makes an enquiry. We can compare prices to goal returns for last season, which tells us that there is/was plenty of value to be had. The cost of the players you mentioned doesn't tell us anything because we don't know whether they will be successful or not.

Cardiff sat back, so we were going to be restricted to pot shots, but we still crafted about as many efforts on goal as City did. Our shooting accuracy and conversion ratio needs to be higher.

 

[billycopper]

Yes you can. Six of the thirteen chances were inside the box. That's less than half. Two of the six were Mirallas' headers from set pieces, one was Coleman's effort that went well wide and one was a Barkley attempt from the edge of the area.

Jelavic had two chances all game - thank you for proving my point.

How many chances inside the area do you think we should be having to convert one of them? And how much of the responsibility should be on Jelavic to create his own chances? The top players are capable of making something out of nothing.

 

[noddy78]

Sky Sports were saying the same on Jeff Stellings show...'Barkley keeping the ball too long' 'Barclay should have passed' etc.

No pressure then a 19 year old kid is meant to win the game for us, ffs Barkley should be just allowed to play no doubt he will make mistakes along the way but its the others who need to step up to the plate. Osman, Mirallas, Jela........all very poor this season so far

 

[bainesontoast]

Yes you can. Six of the thirteen chances were inside the box. That's less than half. Two of the six were Mirallas' headers from set pieces, one was Coleman's effort that went well wide and one was a Barkley attempt from the edge of the area.

Jelavic had two chances all game - thank you for proving my point.

Wasn't trying to prove any point, mate. Just sharing the resource with all. What I find more interesting than shots is the average positions. If you take a look, Jelavic was deeper than Mirallas today (again) when it's quite clear he's not a good enough footballer to be playing anywhere deeper than the 16 yard box (unless the opposition are on the ball). Whereas against Norwich he was our most advanced player on the pitch and he did have a clear cut chance, which was parried for Coleman to score.

Mirallas has been our most advanced player v West Brom and Cardiff now which only leads me to asking myself how long will it be before he is just played as a centre forward and someone comes in for Jelavic who has the ability to offer something from deeper areas.

 

[Tree13]

Ok, so say Kenwright bought Bale or Ronaldo tomorrow. How is he supposed to put it on a plate for Jelavic in a packed penalty area? Jela isn't quick enough to get in front of his marker. He's not going to win aerial tussles. He's not going to outmuscle a defender. He doesn't have the trickery to make a yard of space for himself. He doesn't have the acceleration to run in behind a defender even if he could stay onside. And he doesn't have a rocket shot.

So all his goals have been what? Delivered by a postman? What about his efforts in preseason? How did they go in mate, you've ruled out every method I can think of.

Kone was amongst a number of players that finished on 11 goals.

Yes. That was my point mate. We purchased a "top striker" in Kone, and you're dismissing him after three games, in whih he played a combined total of what, an hour?

I don't have a fecking crystal ball, so I can't tell you future prices until someone makes an enquiry. We can compare prices to goal returns for last season, which tells us that there is/was plenty of value to be had. The cost of the players you mentioned doesn't tell us anything because we don't know whether they will be successful or not.

It's easy to say there's value to be had THIS year, based on LAST year's prices. It completely ignores the fact that the market has been inflated by the influx of sky money, and ignores the large number of strikers that have already been purchased, but don't let those details interfere. The cost of the players I've mentioned is relevant - by comparing them to your list, we can see that strikers are much more expensive this year, which directly refutes your suggestion that there are value purchases out there.

Cardiff sat back, so we were going to be restricted to pot shots, but we still crafted about as many efforts on goal as City did. Our shooting accuracy and conversion ratio needs to be higher.

So you agree that the midfield took pot shots rather than feeding Jelavic, but somehow Jelavic is at fault? OK MATE.

 

[Tree13]

How many chances inside the area do you think we should be having to convert one of them? And how much of the responsibility should be on Jelavic to create his own chances? The top players are capable of making something out of nothing.

Look at the nature of those six.

Coleman's was a medium range shot from an angle; Barkley's was from the edge of the area with a crowd of players in the way. I'd say they are both low-percentage shots.

Mirallas's were both headers from set pieces. Ok, I'd like at least one of them to be on target.

Jelavic's header was a good effort. The defender managed to get a deflection on it, and the keeper was lucky.

The Jelavic shot - he rushed it. The graphic shows he was more than twelve yards out. Additionally, he was under pressure from his marker and was getting closed down rapidly.

My point is, not all of those chances had a decent probability of going in. And let's face it, we'd all have preferred Distin or Fellaini to be on the end of those two Mirallas headers.

 

[billycopper]

So all his goals have been what? Delivered by a postman? What about his efforts in preseason? How did they go in mate, you've ruled out every method I can think of.



Yes. That was my point mate. We purchased a "top striker" in Kone, and you're dismissing him after three games, in whih he played a combined total of what, an hour?


It's easy to say there's value to be had THIS year, based on LAST year's prices. It completely ignores the fact that the market has been inflated by the influx of sky money, and ignores the large number of strikers that have already been purchased, but don't let those details interfere. The cost of the players I've mentioned is relevant - by comparing them to your list, we can see that strikers are much more expensive this year, which directly refutes your suggestion that there are value purchases out there.



So you agree that the midfield took pot shots rather than feeding Jelavic, but somehow Jelavic is at fault? OK MATE.

1) Jela is limited. His positional sense is good and he's quite a calm finisher but, if we're playing one up front, one of their centrebacks is always likely to be marking him, so he won't get that many clear cut chances.

2) I think that Kone will be a decent back up striker but I'm not convinced that he's the man to shoot us into Europe.

3) Bent, Van Wolfswinkel (£8.5m), Hooper (£5m), Altidore (£6.5m) and Bony (£12m) are potentially 'value purchases'.

4) The midfield is only going to give Jelavic the ball if he's in space. Who is that down to?

 

[billycopper]

Look at the nature of those six.

Coleman's was a medium range shot from an angle; Barkley's was from the edge of the area with a crowd of players in the way. I'd say they are both low-percentage shots.

Mirallas's were both headers from set pieces. Ok, I'd like at least one of them to be on target.

Jelavic's header was a good effort. The defender managed to get a deflection on it, and the keeper was lucky.

The Jelavic shot - he rushed it. The graphic shows he was more than twelve yards out. Additionally, he was under pressure from his marker and was getting closed down rapidly.

My point is, not all of those chances had a decent probability of going in. And let's face it, we'd all have preferred Distin or Fellaini to be on the end of those two Mirallas headers.

I'm going to shoot myself in the foot here but I haven't seen the game, I listened to it on the radio, so I can't comment on specifics. If Cardiff are playing that deep though one of the best ways of making space for your striker is to get to the byeline and pull the ball back. Maybe we need Deulofeu to be able to do that more?