Bring back Roberto Martinez?

[Papa Shango]

There is the reality of what actually happened, and then there is your warped, biased, deluded view of what happened so maybe we can settle this with some facts.

Moyes took over an Everton side that had finished 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th in the previous 5 seasons. Martinez took over a side that had finished 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th in the previous 5. To me that highlights that Moyes had a tougher task when taking over EFC.

Martinez lasted 3 seasons at Everton overseeing a 5th, 11th and 12th (12th when he was sacked) placed finish. That gives an average league placing of 10th. Moyes lasted 11 seasons and at his best got us a top 4 finish, and 5th on 2 occasions, contributing to an overall average league finish of 8th (7.5). Within 3 seasons of coming in as Everton manager he got us a 4th placed finish, which is higher than what Martinez achieved in that time.

Martinez took us to 2 semi Finals, whilst Moyes got us to 1 Semi Final and a FA Cup Final.

So Moyes beats him on average league finish, highest league finish and furthest run in a Cup competition. All through his own leadership as he didn't get a helping hand from Walter Smith like Martinez got from taking over the side Moyes built. Martinez had one excellent season where the football was mostly great. To call the football under Moyes mind numbing hoofball for 9 years is attempting to rewrite history. The outstanding team goal against Larissa by Osman was probably the best worked Everton goal in the last 20 years.

I would expect a manager who has been in charge of a top flight club for 11 years to win something to be honest. Nobody gets near to that type of time these days.

Agree with the comments about he hoofball. Moyes did play some nice stuff at times.

 

[Alanbileysfeathercut]

Wind Up Merchants

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Moyes' second season was worse than Martinez's third season. Latter got sacked whereas Moyes was allowed to learn and re-build.

In the vast majority of times Moyes never went on the front foot against any team in and around us in the table - let alone the Sky teams for whom we may as well have not bothered turning up.

Martinez was given a second chance

His second season was one of the worst in years, but he still got a third

Moyes took his second chance and made it count, Martinez took his second chance and then went on to prove he didn't deserve it

 

[davek]

There is the reality of what actually happened, and then there is your warped, biased, deluded view of what happened so maybe we can settle this with some facts.

Moyes took over an Everton side that had finished 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th in the previous 5 seasons. Martinez took over a side that had finished 5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th in the previous 5. To me that highlights that Moyes had a tougher task when taking over EFC.

Martinez lasted 3 seasons at Everton overseeing a 5th, 11th and 12th (12th when he was sacked) placed finish. That gives an average league placing of 10th. Moyes lasted 11 seasons and at his best got us a top 4 finish, and 5th on 2 occasions, contributing to an overall average league finish of 8th (7.5). Within 3 seasons of coming in as Everton manager he got us a 4th placed finish, which is higher than what Martinez achieved in that time.

Martinez took us to 2 semi Finals, whilst Moyes got us to 1 Semi Final and a FA Cup Final.

So Moyes beats him on average league finish, highest league finish and furthest run in a Cup competition. All through his own leadership as he didn't get a helping hand from Walter Smith like Martinez got from taking over the side Moyes built. Martinez had one excellent season where the football was mostly great. To call the football under Moyes mind numbing hoofball for 9 years is attempting to rewrite history. The outstanding team goal against Larissa by Osman was probably the best worked Everton goal in the last 20 years.

Martinez was here three seasons. In that time we had the two mid table finishes. We also had our best ever points total in the PL; our best ever win total in the PL; and two SF appearances.

Moyes was here eleven seasons. In that time we had our worst ever PL points total; finished one place above the relegation zone; never got more than 65 points in a season. On the plus side we got a CL qualifying spot (which he blew); a cup final and SF spot; and a couple of 5th place finishes.

Can anyone really state - given the huge difference in time in the dugout here - that Moyes did anything that constitutes him being thought of as a bigger success than Martinez? I dont think so.

Both ultimately failed us...it's just that one tried to play football the right way and the other just had us existing.

 

[davek]

People seem to forget the point of football as a modern sport - it's supposed to be entertaining. Add in the fact that it should ideally also be attacking and fearless and you get the idea. I just don't see the point of an Allardyce or similar. They don't have an ounce of history in running an attractive successful team.

Completely agree.

 

[R934]

The amount of fans that seemingly clamber to win a cup at all expenses, and then dismiss Martinez's cup performance because the league form was 'terrible' - hypocrites.

End of the day we had an identity under Roberto but couldn't build on it. Koeman gets given the excuse he wanted a left back and a targetman, you only have to go back to numerous press conferences to see the positions/players Roberto identified but we didn't sign. His second season was merely the same squad but make the loans permanent, we haven't progressed as a club since.

Its easy to talk hypothetically but I'm sure given resources and support Roberto would have had players identified to sign during the summer he was sacked. Instead we had a completely disjointed window, and all the excuses were thrown about - it was the Euro's, we've got a DOF, new manager, so on so forth. Clearly the excuses have no substance, but it was easier to paint a picture of progression when you've got an excuse to find if it goes wrong.

Give Roberto funds and we'd be no worse of - granted thats an opinion not a fact- with an footballling philosophy and players to match.
Roberto's squad was Moyes with a few players of his ilk and look what it achieved. When pushed to expand upon his footballing idea's the Moyes players couldn't step-up and slowly but surely it all unravelled.

Say what you want about Roberto but it's masked in disappointment and tained by what could have been. It was never this bad under him, but its safe to say the one universal factor is the players. They've down tools before and they've continued to do so since - quite simply ship them out, get our identity back, and hopefully we'll look like a functioning unit again. Until that happens it we'll continue to be served this utter dross, whilst hoping from manager to manager and spending for spending sake.

 

[laudo9]

He's already on the ale.

Never knew he was a Blues fan !

 

[Nymzee]

Martinez was here three seasons. In that time we had the two mid table finishes. We also had our best ever points total in the PL; our best ever win total in the PL; and two SF appearances.

Moyes was here eleven seasons. In that time we had our worst ever PL points total; finished one place above the relegation zone; never got more than 65 points in a season. On the plus side we got a CL qualifying spot (which he blew); a cup final and SF spot; and a couple of 5th place finishes.

Can anyone really state - given the huge difference in time in the dugout here - that Moyes did anything that constitutes him being thought of as a bigger success than Martinez? I dont think so.

Both ultimately failed us...it's just that one tried to play football the right way and the other just had us existing.

CL qualifiers > EL group stage.

 

[BlueStevie35]

Moyes' second season was worse than Martinez's third season. Latter got sacked whereas Moyes was allowed to learn and re-build.

In the vast majority of times Moyes never went on the front foot against any team in and around us in the table - let alone the Sky teams for whom we may as well have not bothered turning up.

Football in 2006 was much different to what it was in 2016, more emphasis on money and instant results these days. Had Moyes been in charge now rather than then he'd have been given the boot, likewise had Martinez been in charge then, he'd have been given more of a chance. The flaws for both were one tried to evolve his tactics the other flat out refused to

 

[TraffordBlue]

Moyes' second season was worse than Martinez's third season. Latter got sacked whereas Moyes was allowed to learn and re-build.

In the vast majority of times Moyes never went on the front foot against any team in and around us in the table - let alone the Sky teams for whom we may as well have not bothered turning up.

You're ignoring that Moyes took over a far worse Everton side who for the previous 5 seasons before he came in had been battling relegation or at best were bottom half of the table side with 13th as the best finish.

His circumstances were different to Martinez and Martinez' slump lasted for 2 consecutive seasons which is what got him the sack. Moyes never had us slump so low in 2 consecutive seasons.

Do you not think Moyes should have been given time to learn and rebuild given what he went on to do at the club - 9 top 8 finishes in 11 seasons, a top 4 finish, and 4 top 6 finishes? That was relative success for where we had been before he came in.

As for your comments about the SKY teams. I assume you are talking about away games as Moyes got several wins against them at home. Go and have a look at how many top 4/SKY teams Martinez beat away in his time here. The answer is 1 if you count Moyes' 7th placed Man United side, so no top 4 teams.

 

[davek]

Martinez was given a second chance

His second season was one of the worst in years, but he still got a third

Moyes took his second chance and made it count, Martinez took his second chance and then went on to prove he didn't deserve it

How did he make it count?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

How did he make it count?

By improving on that terrible season and then continuously improving season on season

Look at that Moyes side at the end of 12/13 compared to the side he inherited

He undoubtedly left us stronger

Martinez brought in Lukaku, but left us overall weaker

 

[davek]

He did

...but what did he do?

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

...but what did he do?

See the edited post good sir

 

[Khalekan]

The God of Sexy football compared to the beast of Allardyce.

He's matured and learnt a lot in the intervening years......

I would not advocate fetching Roberto back per se.

But the question posed is should we bring him back to replace Sam.

And I would most definitely prefer Bob to Sam