Baines / Rodwell

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Can't buy class said:
Happy both Baines and Jags never played in a way and risked 1) getting injured and 2) getting put in the shop window with even more journo crap being printed about them.

Obviously feel sad for them both but given how rubbish England played they probably didn't miss much. (unlike Cole and Young)

Get them back in training after a few weeks holiday raring to go for a new season with our beloved club is all that concerns me.
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All the above
 

The whole youth system in Britain is crap. Just today we have a lad that has played for England all through the age groups released to ply his trade in the 3rd tier. How can he be held in such high esteem as recently as under 20 level yet now be playing at such a low level? The list below is the England under 20 squad in the 2009 World Cup. So you'd think some of these should have progressed to the first team now, being the best of the best at their age group (you'd think). Yet I challenge anyone here to know who these kids are. Not one is playing first team football in the PL.

[TABLE="class: sortable jquery-tablesorter"]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]GK[/TD]
[TD]Jason Steele[/TD]
[TD]18 August 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Middlesbrough[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Kieran Trippier[/TD]
[TD]19 September 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Jordan Parkes[/TD]
[TD]26 July 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Watford[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Adam Clayton[/TD]
[TD]14 January 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Martin Kelly[/TD]
[TD]27 April 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Liverpool[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Ben Mee[/TD]
[TD]3 November 1989 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]FW[/TD]
[TD]Febian Brandy[/TD]
[TD]4 February 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester United[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Josh Walker (c)[/TD]
[TD]21 February 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Middlesbrough[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]FW[/TD]
[TD]Alex Nimely-Tchuimeni[/TD]
[TD]5 November 1991 (aged 17)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Michael Woods[/TD]
[TD]6 April 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Chelsea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Paul Marshall[/TD]
[TD]9 July 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Matty James[/TD]
[TD]22 July 1991 (aged 18)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester United[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]GK[/TD]
[TD]Mark Oxley[/TD]
[TD]2 June 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Hull City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Matthew Briggs[/TD]
[TD]9 March 1991 (aged 18)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Fulham[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Gavin Hoyte[/TD]
[TD]6 June 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Arsenal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]DF[/TD]
[TD]Nana Ofori-Twumasi[/TD]
[TD]15 May 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Chelsea[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]17[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]FW[/TD]
[TD]Jon Obika (on loan to Yeovil Town)[/TD]
[TD]12 September 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Tottenham Hotspur[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]18[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]FW[/TD]
[TD]Sam Baldock[/TD]
[TD]15 March 1989 (aged 20)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Milton Keynes Dons[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]19[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Gary Gardner[/TD]
[TD]29 June 1992 (aged 17)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Aston Villa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]MF[/TD]
[TD]Andrew Tutte[/TD]
[TD]21 September 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Manchester City[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: center"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]GK[/TD]
[TD]Elliot Parish[/TD]
[TD]20 May 1990 (aged 19)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[TD] Aston Villa[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Obviously a large percentage of the youth team will not make the England first team consistently, the england first team is basically the U17,U18,U19,U20,U21,etc all put together... Probably every country is similar.

A decent number of that squad from 2003 have played in the premiership as well so they obviously are decent players. The likes of Walcott and the Ox skip these levels because they are that good, similar to the way Rooney only played once for the U19 then straight into the first team squad.
 
Look at the 2009 list and there are hardly any even playing in the PL let alone knocking on the door of the England setup.

Barcelona are the role models for all at the moment with regards to their youth setup. They certainly seem to have a better record of graduating players through the ranks.

It's no different to us. We've had countless hot young things during Moyes tenure, from Mustafi to Silva and none have gotten close to threatening the first team.

The whole point of youth coaching is to take players that are good as kids and make them good as adults. Somewhere that process is going badly wrong.
 

I was never under the impression that England took the U-20 WC very seriously. And honestly, when you're picking the best kids under 20 for a competitive tournament, you're not necessarily getting the best prospects all the time.

Most of those kids won't work out either. I remember the 2007 U-20 WC and Brazil where the heavy favorites with Jo and Pato leading the way. Look at how that turned out.

I don't think England are producing the players to compete at the level where they want, but I'm not sure dredging up old U-20 rosters is really the best evidence of that.
 
If they're not acting as a stepping stone to the senior team why have them? We're in a position where few young English players play first team in the PL. Even fewer have regular exposure to international competition. Even fewer still leave the PL to get first team action and continue their education abroad.

Really is it any surprise we suck?
 
Bruce Wayne said:
If they're not acting as a stepping stone to the senior team why have them? We're in a position where few young English players play first team in the PL. Even fewer have regular exposure to international competition. Even fewer still leave the PL to get first team action and continue their education abroad.

Really is it any surprise we suck?
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This seems to be the main difference between us and nations like Germany and Spain, superficially at least. The xenophobic effect that the existence of the English channel has had on our national psyche is likely the main reason that Danny Welbeck can't hold the ball up properly.

Axe Murderer said:
I can agree with a majority of that certainly but it's not just a parenting issue although yes lazy parenting has got to take some accountability. British schools don't bother with P.E anymore either for the life of me I can't understand that and then in the next breath start saying kids are obese. We all know not all kids are good at sports but physical education is not just about that it's fitness and health, preparing kids to work as part of a team. All factors.

I am a firm believer in playing games to win, I know this is a point which has split opinion but there is nothing wrong with being winners taking part for fun is all well and good but everyone loves to win and it breeds a mental toughness which is sadly lacking in our youngsters because as British we have become to used to the PC brigade telling us winning doesn't matter, it does.
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Oh and I only just saw this. Excellent satire.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
The whole youth system in Britain is crap. Just today we have a lad that has played for England all through the age groups released to ply his trade in the 3rd tier. How can he be held in such high esteem as recently as under 20 level yet now be playing at such a low level? The list below is the England under 20 squad in the 2009 World Cup. So you'd think some of these should have progressed to the first team now, being the best of the best at their age group (you'd think). Yet I challenge anyone here to know who these kids are. Not one is playing first team football in the PL
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As a FM geek I know most of them, I'd imagine that most of us would pick out the one who's just come back from the European Championships too!

The issue with under age football groups is that it's the best of that particular age group and doesn't provide any real indication of their ability to compete on a higher stage. Their clubs need immediacy in terms of results so give these players limited opportunities in the first team - it's sink or swim; whereas the players themselves are not going to improve unless they are exposed to first team football. There are the odd exceptions here and there and in many ways there are flaws in the English game.

In Spain, the larger clubs are allowed to field their reserves in the lower divisions so the better youth players from Madrid, from Barca can play competitive football against professional sides and gel together as a team. This is a much better solution than the odd player heading out on loan which you find in the UK. We tend to find clubs throwing a lot of lines out at young players in the hope that one catches a bite...it's generally not the proclaimed 'best of their generation' who hits the big time either as there is so much more than ability in the makeup of a professional footballer.

There's too much money in football for the national team and development of players towards this to be of ANY concern to the owner/manager of an EPL club. They players are their players and they will play as their club plays and develop as their club wants them to develop. I can't see how that will change if I'm being honest.
 
My point though was that it's usually the UEFA U-21s that are taken more seriously. I could be wrong as I'm not exactly a huge follower of English youth international football.
 

Axe Murderer said:
I am a firm believer in playing games to win, I know this is a point which has split opinion but there is nothing wrong with being winners taking part for fun is all well and good but everyone loves to win and it breeds a mental toughness which is sadly lacking in our youngsters because as British we have become to used to the PC brigade telling us winning doesn't matter, it does.
Click to expand...

Playing to win at young ages is stupid and self defeating because if winning is your only goal the bigger and the stronger players will get picked above the weedy kids who have great potential but just aren't there yet. Chris Waddle couldn't even get a game at his youth side when there was only 12 players involved, because despite his talent he wasn't up for playing against the vigurous older teenagers and so he was benched by short sighted coaches who viewed winning youth matches as more important then producing players ready for the senior game. Whereas the current Barcelona and Spain team spent all their teenager years getting thrashed by big strong lads but were kept together until their ball control was good enough they could win for real.

Nobody remembers who won the under 12s league, what they remember is the ones who spent that time being taught skills and won actual trohgpies in the senior game.

The idea that fight and will to win is more improtant than ability or training is why England are so poor.
 
pfim said:
My point though was that it's usually the UEFA U-21s that are taken more seriously. I could be wrong as I'm not exactly a huge follower of English youth international football.
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Even if you look at our teams in those competitions though, few graduate to the senior lineup. If you look at the squad that reached the final of the 2009 under 21 Euros only three are now regular squad members

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_UEFA_European_Under-21_Football_Championship_squads#.C2.A0England

Sure the likes of Gibbs, Richards and Rodwell may well become regulars, but even then the graduation rate is 25%. Hardly great for a team that got to the final.

The Germans by contrast have graduated guys like Neuer, Khedira, Ozil and Boateng to lynchpins of their national team already.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Even if you look at our teams in those competitions though, few graduate to the senior lineup. If you look at the squad that reached the final of the 2009 under 21 Euros only three are now regular squad members

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_UEFA_European_Under-21_Football_Championship_squads#.C2.A0England

Sure the likes of Gibbs, Richards and Rodwell may well become regulars, but even then the graduation rate is 25%. Hardly great for a team that got to the final.

The Germans by contrast have graduated guys like Neuer, Khedira, Ozil and Boateng to lynchpins of their national team already.
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Why does it matter whether they've played for England at every level on the way up, as long as we find senior players from somewhere? As has been pointed out, the 25% graduation rate is midleading due to the fact that players like Walcott, Jones, Smalling, Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc have been called up by the senior squad.
 
Recent piece from Moyes on the France U21 side which produced Benzema etc....basically had the chance to sign a few but didnt see anyone special as u21 games arent good for indentifying players....
 
Zatara said:
Recent piece from Moyes on the France U21 side which produced Benzema etc....basically had the chance to sign a few but didnt see anyone special as u21 games arent good for indentifying players....
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Well, the U-21 didn't produce Benzema. In fact he only played 5 times and scored zero goals.

The rosters are just symptoms of the problem, not the actual problem. Trotting out Theo Walcott at age 17 in the PL is another.
 

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