Current Affairs Auschwitz-Birkenau.......

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, it's sickening that the very people who should have learned the most from that genocide have sought to make the lives of a whole people a nightmare.
A very valid point. Without wanting to excuse their actions, I suspect when you consider the situation objectively then the reason for the majority of their actions are:
  1. Rightly or wrongly, their aim will be to protect their own interests against any other form of oppression, so that such horrors can't happen again,
  2. Like any individual who has been bullied, you are for a multitude of reasons more likely to be a bully yourself.
 
A very valid point. Without wanting to excuse their actions, I suspect when you consider the situation objectively then the reason for the majority of their actions are:
  1. Rightly or wrongly, their aim will be to protect their own interests against any other form of oppression, so that such horrors can't happen again,
  2. Like any individual who has been bullied, you are for a multitude of reasons more likely to be a bully yourself.
It's not bullying though. It's apartheid. Let's not mince words.
 
It's not bullying though. It's apartheid. Let's not mince words.
But two people is a brigade? Let's not get caught up on semantics Dave because you're a smart gentleman, so I suspect you will understand the point I made.

If you think of ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences), a child who experiences alcohol in the home is more likely to suffer from substance abuse themselves.

Replace alcohol with drugs, domestic violence or sexual abuse and the pattern is the same. The Jews (Israelis) suffered terrible abuse, and as such we now have...

I am not saying it is correct, far from it, or trying to excuse their actions, nevertheless it is right to objectively discuss the rational for it - conscious or subconscious.
 
But two people is a brigade? Let's not get caught up on semantics Dave because you're a smart gentleman, so I suspect you will understand the point I made.

If you think of ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences), a child who experiences alcohol in the home is more likely to suffer from substance abuse themselves.

Replace alcohol with drugs, domestic violence or sexual abuse and the pattern is the same. The Jews (Israelis) suffered terrible abuse, and as such we now have...

I am not saying it is correct, far from it, or trying to excuse their actions, nevertheless it is right to objectively discuss the rational for it - conscious or subconscious.


And because the Israelis have bullied and visited such cruelty on the Palestinians that very same rationale should be extended to violent Palestinian resistance to it and a genuine attempt made to break the vicious circle.

But it never is.

Israeli violence toward Palestinians is ”justified” in the eyes of governments of all hues in America and England on the grounds of “self defence”.

Palestinian resistance to it is dismissed as “terrorism” by the same people.
 
And because the Israelis have bullied and visited such cruelty on the Palestinians that very same rationale should be extended to violent Palestinian resistance to it and a genuine attempt made to break the vicious circle.

But it never is.

Israeli violence toward Palestinians is ”justified” in the eyes of governments of all hues in America and England on the grounds of “self defence”.

Palestinian resistance to it is dismissed as “terrorism” by the same people.
Add to that, the formation of the Israeli state lies firmly on the shoulders of said nations, while its existence provides an important quasi-satellite in the region.

It is less of a turn the blind eye situation and more of accepting their actions (to an extent) because of what it offers them.
 
Add to that, the formation of the Israeli state lies firmly on the shoulders of said nations, while its existence provides an important quasi-satellite in the region.

It is less of a turn the blind eye situation and more of accepting their actions (to an extent) because of what it offers them.


Indeed.

By coincidence my brother and I were discuss the issue of Israel last night and how the USA in particular acts as its bodyguard and we both agreed that if Israel was in South America or in sub Saharan Africa there would be no such support for it.
 
But two people is a brigade? Let's not get caught up on semantics Dave because you're a smart gentleman, so I suspect you will understand the point I made.

If you think of ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences), a child who experiences alcohol in the home is more likely to suffer from substance abuse themselves.

Replace alcohol with drugs, domestic violence or sexual abuse and the pattern is the same. The Jews (Israelis) suffered terrible abuse, and as such we now have...

I am not saying it is correct, far from it, or trying to excuse their actions, nevertheless it is right to objectively discuss the rational for it - conscious or subconscious.
You cant reduce the actions of a state down to an abused individual repeating the crime perpetrated against them. That's just not how it works.
 
I'll start with the last point and work backwards.

Belgium's unexpected decision to opt for neutrality can't be simply disregarded as a point for why appeasement was maintained, especially in '37 and '38.

The plan had been to confront German aggression either on German soil, with the Maginot Line to fall back on, or on Belgian soil with the line as an interleave.

With Belgian neutrality, this plan became instantly defunct and the strategies in place needed to be adapted, with the Maginot line hurriedly becoming extended.

This would take to 1942 at the earliest, with greater costs (water table and other issues) and to a lower standard than the additional line - all well known to the gov.

Observers weren't even allowed within side Belgium and as such temporary appeasement was an answer by both governments to aid mobilisation et al.

You then mention the ol' quantitative advantage, which totally ignores the mass qualitative deficiencies in both equipment, doctrine and interaction been branches.

While you rightly mention German tactical advantages being a pivotal factor for success, this was well known by British observes (at least) way before 1939.

Yes German tanks had weaker guns and less armour, but their high top speed was a key part to their doctrine as mentioned in Guderian's Panzer - Achtung.

They were centralised in divisional/brigade structures, whereas British and French with their heavier cruiser tanks or low-speed infantry tanks were spread thing.

Infantry divisions/brigades were in turn were far better equipped than their British and French counterparts: number of MG, artillery, mortars, infantry vehicles etc.

We went to battle in '39/40 with the 18 pounder and 4.5inch howizter, which were all pre-1914: great in their day, but not so good when it came to the late 30s.

Now, not all the German artillery weapons were new, however there was a much better mix of new and antiquated heavy weapons, again all tied into their doctrine.

I could go on and on here, with the Luftwaffe having higher numbers of quality aircraft versus our own, or how the Kriegsmarine's ignorance of the WNT giving help.

Where we did have numerical advantage, the quality of aircraft was questionable at best: look at the Blenheim. Importantly, they had a sizeable fighter advantage.

While being much larger in actual manpower, the French army was a shell of its once brilliant self, with poor discipline, training, equipment and mobility.

Yes they started from a lower base, however their blatant disregard for treaties and limitation gave a great advantage: they were building the Bismark vs. our KGV.

Tactically, it isn't as simple as making a mass change and the advancements that were started again would not come to fruition until 1941-43 at the earliest.

Could or should we have done better to stop the Germans in 1940? Could or should be have rearmed quicker and ensured our doctrine was better?

Yes, however that doesn't negate the understanding that pre-war we were behind them, which we knew it and they knew. In 19490, this was still the clear case.

Therefore, an option was to use our considerable resources to try and match their strength over time, as we couldn't afford it quickly. Here comes appeasement.

With regards to the leniency, I recommend you read Catherine Cline or Maynard Keyne's views of the treaty. Woodrow Wilson publicly declared it was so.

Appeasement did not work, that's clear to see and we could have done a lot more as well; but, the logic behind it had many, many merits and it still does.

It didn’t, though. Everything you have said there - the failure of military policy especially - was down to the same government who came up with a policy of appeasement. In 1930 the UK was far ahead of Germany in every single category of military affairs, with far more resources available to it and a much larger economy.

The pro-appeasement argument would have us believe than in four years (1933-37) Hitler took the Germans, from nothing, so far that we had to sacrifice potential allies and our national self respect in order to allow ourselves time to come up with the technology and numbers to deal with the Germans, even though at that time the German armed forces were far weaker than they were in 1940, were in a much worse strategic situation before Munich and we performed awfully when war finally was declared.

The crowning failure though was to take something we invented (tanks), worked out how to use (most of Guderians early work was based on the writings of Swinton, Fuller and other British tank officers) and then done the absolute opposite of what we were meant to do with them. The Germans were only able to do what they did in 1940 because they kept their tanks together - all other factors like speed, armour and guns were largely irrelevant to the success they had at our expense (indeed ours were collectively better than theirs were).
 
It didn’t, though. Everything you have said there - the failure of military policy especially - was down to the same government who came up with a policy of appeasement. In 1930 the UK was far ahead of Germany in every single category of military affairs, with far more resources available to it and a much larger economy.

The pro-appeasement argument would have us believe than in four years (1933-37) Hitler took the Germans, from nothing, so far that we had to sacrifice potential allies and our national self respect in order to allow ourselves time to come up with the technology and numbers to deal with the Germans, even though at that time the German armed forces were far weaker than they were in 1940, were in a much worse strategic situation before Munich and we performed awfully when war finally was declared.

The crowning failure though was to take something we invented (tanks), worked out how to use (most of Guderians early work was based on the writings of Swinton, Fuller and other British tank officers) and then done the absolute opposite of what we were meant to do with them. The Germans were only able to do what they did in 1940 because they kept their tanks together - all other factors like speed, armour and guns were largely irrelevant to the success they had at our expense (indeed ours were collectively better than theirs were).
We'll have to agree to disagree because I find that while there were failings of the government (I've never said otherwise) you can't disregard all the points.

Britain could not afford to maintain it's Empire and rebuild and retrain its force, nor was there a political or public will to do so, whereas Germany could and did.

The appeasement of early on was soon dwarfed by the issues that weren't directly under their control (Belgium etc.) and secret breaches of treaty.
 
Last edited:
Sometimes you have to put away the analysis, put away the politics and put away personal views. Sometimes it’s just worth remembering that 6 million Jews were exterminated for no other reason than being Jews. Men, women and Children. Perhaps we should just remember......
 
Sometimes you have to put away the analysis, put away the politics and put away personal views. Sometimes it’s just worth remembering that 6 million Jews were exterminated for no other reason than being Jews. Men, women and Children. Perhaps we should just remember......
...and remember also the half a million gypsies killed for being nothing other than gypsies.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top