Current Affairs Auschwitz-Birkenau.......

[Disgruntledgoat]

Ha Ha Ha.

FFS.

The Irish serving with British forces.

During the Second World War, two young Irishmen served in the armed forces of Nazi Germany, swearing the oath of the Waffen-SS and wearing the organisation's uniform and even its distinctive blood group tattoo.Ironically these young men had originally joined an Irish regiment of the British army, and but for a twist of fate would have ended up fighting against the Germans. Instead, the pair were recruited to the German special forces after they were captured on the island of Jersey.Under the command of Otto Skorzeny, the man who rescued Italian dictator Benito Mussolini from a mountain top prison, they were involved in some of the most ferocious fighting of the war in the last days of the Third Reich.This account, which also covers some of the other Irishmen who sided with Nazi Germany, draws heavily on their own accounts and on state papers which have been released in recent years.

2, as you said Dave.

I also did not say they served with the British. I said they were neutral. The position of the Irish government was neutrality.

There were no Irish POWs.

 

[davek]

The idea that the BUF were a government in waiting is absolutely laughable too. The British public's reaction to authoritarianism has always been scorn and derision. In truth, Mosely's power base was in the same working class London wards as blocked his march in 1936.

The Conservative government moved in 1937 to prohibit organising, training or equipping an "association of persons ... for the purpose of enabling them to be employed in usurping the functions of the police or of the armed forces of the Crown", or "for the use or display of physical force in promoting any political object". His major political win was having 3 councilors elected in London and drawing 10,000 people in a city of 3 million to a rally. More people watched Arsenal at home on the same day. Any attempts to put up candidates outside of London were met with indifference or scorn.

The Tories appeased the fascists.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

There were more than those two. I've read extensive extracts of that book. They recruited more than two but they didn't see active service.

Can you post some evidence of these massed ranks of trained Irish SS troops deemed not good enough to be put in the field when the Nazis were happily using Hitler Youth by 1944?

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

The Tories appeased the fascists.

How did they do this? Because by my watch outlawing their activities and interring their leader would seem to be quite the opposite.

Can you remind me who the last party Mosely represented in Parliament was please?

 

[davek]

Can you post some evidence of these massed ranks of trained Irish SS troops deemed not good enough to be put in the field when the Nazis were happily using Hitler Youth by 1944?

They weren't deemed not good enough, they refused to go to complete the process and remained in a POW camp. And I didn't say massed ranks, I said a number of men.

Can you stick to what I actually said rather than concocting some BS spin that you believe covers you in glory but really makes you look like a complete tit?

 

[davek]

How did they do this? Because by my watch outlawing their activities and interring their leader would seem to be quite the opposite.

Can you remind me who the last party Mosely represented in Parliament was please?

Pick a history book up of pre-WW2 political history. It's all there. I'm actually embarrassed for you that you dont know these things. It's primary school level knowledge.

 

[Harryflashman]

I think you're getting hung up on the numbers - a case of 'never mind the quality, feel the width'.

Whether there were a battalion, a brigade, or a small corp - there were British people serving in that organisation.

The overarching point is sustained: they were there, and their comrades back in England werr only crushed by left wing mobilisation on the streets.

I’m hung up on the numbers because you said a brigade when at any one time it was less than 1% of a brigade at best, that’s not really my fault . Then I pointed it out and you said they manipulated the numbers so I pointed out they were scrupulous in record keeping as pointed out by the hundreds of thousands of Russians ; tens of thousands of Belgians , Dutch , french , Romanians Etc and thousands of Scandinavians and even Indians that were recording as having served in specific SS units .

foreign service men served in the SS but if you want to point the finger the countries that should probably be most exempt include the only one you seem adamant to accuse . You’d almost think it’s agenda based . Just to be clear I despise the BUF and anyone that sort to give them any kind of tacit support or succour .

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

They weren't deemed not good enough, they refused to go to complete the process and remained in a POW camp. And I didn't say massed ranks, I said a number of men.

Can you stick to what I actually said rather than concocting some BS spin that you believe covers you in glory but really makes you look like a complete tit?

So they were recruited but not recruited? So, the point would stand that there were 2 Irish SS members documented and the rest may or may not have existed. My apologies if I "looked like a tit" I took "Never saw active service" to mean they were held in reserve or training rather than "never joined the SS".

 

[davek]

I’m hung up on the numbers because you said a brigade when at any one time it was less than 1% of a brigade at best, that’s not really my fault . Then I pointed it out and you said they manipulated the numbers so I pointed out they were scrupulous in record keeping as pointed out by the hundreds of thousands of Russians ; tens of thousands of Belgians , Dutch , french , Romanians Etc and thousands of Scandinavians and even Indians that were recording as having served in specific SS units .

foreign service men served in the SS but if you want to point the finger the countries that should probably be most exempt include the only one you seem adamant to accuse . You’d almost think it’s agenda based . Just to be clear I despise the BUF and anyone that sort to give them any kind of tacit support or succour .

No mate, I conceded on the terminology, but Im right on your fixation over numbers. I know that there are people who take great pride in knowing military history and facts and figures surrounding that and get upset if their knowledge is challenged on it, but in demanding absolute detail on strength of numbers the point - the overall point - is missed: that they existed in whatever numbers.

In any case, my primary point was that the British left back then mobilised and smashed the nazis here...something the government of the day wouldn't do.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

Pick a history book up of pre-WW2 political history. It's all there. I'm actually embarrassed for you that you dont know these things. It's primary school level knowledge.

Damn, I knew when I researched the political climate of the 1930s as background to a dissertation on the wartime unity government I missed something. Your primary school must have had quite the library.

Can you help me out with how this appeasing took place?

I will grant you that some of the nuttier fringes of all the parties had some creeping admiration for the directness of Moseley's message and his direct way of going about things. However, the mainstream of Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties rejected utterly the politics of the BUF. Which is why the Public order act of 1936, designed in large part to halt the BUF, passed Parliament so easliy. The bitter irony of it was that it forced them to abandon those tactics and start appealing to middle class voters who would be more likely to vote Conservative which would make any appeasment counter productive.

 

[davek]

So they were recruited but not recruited? So, the point would stand that there were 2 Irish SS members documented and the rest may or may not have existed. My apologies if I "looked like a tit" I took "Never saw active service" to mean they were held in reserve or training rather than "never joined the SS".

No, more than two were documented in that book. And you can be recruit but not serve. Dont you know of anyone - or have heard of anyone - who joined up at a recruiting office and left before completing the process?

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

No, more than two were documented in that book. And you can be recruit but not serve. Dont you know of anyone - or have heard of anyone - who joined up at a recruiting office and left before completing the process?

Yes. That can happen. But by definition you aren't a recruit until you take an oath and sign your life away.

Let's agree to disagree on this point because, without a copy of the book and its bibliography I'm fighting blind. I have never seen any evidence of this but then I haven't looked for it.

 

[davek]

Damn, I knew when I researched the political climate of the 1930s as background to a dissertation on the wartime unity government I missed something. Your primary school must have had quite the library.

Can you help me out with how this appeasing took place?

I will grant you that some of the nuttier fringes of all the parties had some creeping admiration for the directness of Moseley's message and his direct way of going about things. However, the mainstream of Labour, Liberal and Conservative parties rejected utterly the politics of the BUF. Which is why the Public order act of 1936, designed in large part to halt the BUF, passed Parliament so easliy. The bitter irony of it was that it forced them to abandon those tactics and start appealing to middle class voters who would be more likely to vote Conservative which would make any appeasment counter productive.

Go back and read again. You;re seeing what you want to see.

I made no claim of the Tories not rejecting the BUF, I said that they appeased the nazis and that they did the square root of f.a. in getting shut of the BUF off our streets.

It's always best if you read what's actually being said by someone you're debating with, I always find.

In any case, this is a tangent of the thread. Let's not clog it up with me schooling you on this matter. The issue is death camps and how they happened, not the minutia of British and Irish involvement in the Waffen SS.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

Go back and read again. You;re seeing what you want to see.

I made no claim of the Tories not rejecting the BUF, I said that they appeased the nazis and that they did the square root of f.a. in getting shut of the BUF off our streets.

You stated "The Tories appeased the Fascists". I took this to mean the BUF. You go on to say that Baldwin's government "did the square root of f.a. in getting shut of the BUF off our streets." I have repeatedly provided you with evidence of them writing legislation specifically worded to do just that.

But ok, lets leave it there. Nice talking as always.

 

[Nobby Nobbs]

Going back to the original post, was talking about the holocaust in work and one of the lads said he's watched a programme/film called the greatest story never told looking at the Holocaust from the German side, he said it's worth a watch, was wondering if anyone has seen it and what their opinion of it was. Not seen it myself.