Attacking Analysis at Birmingham

[ToxtethBlue]

We don't really have a forward who runs in behind, nor a specialist player capable of seeing through passes on a regular basis. Arteta can do it, Pienaar can, even Bilyaletdinov - but they don't do it on a regular basis. Yakubu's got good movement, he works the left channel well and can drop off into deeper central positions but he rarely, if ever, runs in behind opposition teams, that's never been his natural game, despite what people say.

I've said from day one that Arteta is a deep lying playmaker, he passes, he moves, he makes him available, he makes angles for players in possession and most of the time, he makes the right pass, which isn't always the spectacular one. He is the main reason we 'control' games, whether he's in form or not. I'm not doubting he's playing within himself at present, he is, but even when he's playing well, his positioning doesn't change all that much. He plays very centrally, and will more than not be on line with Fellaini, rather than ahead of him. That's not to say he can't get forward, he can and will, but he'll never be this out and out attacking midfielder.

You also have to take into account that Fellaini is still learning defensively, his off the ball movement still isn't brilliant, that's not a criticism, he'll learn with experience, but he does have a tendency to switch off at times, and fails to track runners. Arteta does alot of underrated defensive work, which goes unnoticed because he's seen as some sort of luxury playmaker.

He will never be a Thomas Gravesen, so to speak, and I know the Dane was frustrating, but he was a very creative player in the final third, and someone who was excellent at passing the ball into space. Look at how many times he put Marcus Bent through during that six month period...

I think the balance of the team in the last two games is the right one. Arteta and Fellaini in the middle of the park, 4-4-1-1, Coleman on the right handside and Yakubu upfront. We've just got to stick with it and hope certain players start contributing more and getting back to there best. You have to take into account that Coleman has played on two tight, narrow pitches in the last two games. He'll get more space at Goodison and on bigger pitches.

 

[Goat]

Good post TxB, but I do feel Beckford would be the better option upfront, he offers a LOT more movement than Yakubu, im not saying hes a better player, but he does have the ability to play off the defenders shoulder and run behind the last man.

But saying that Beckford clearly isnt ready just yet, hes made a BIG step up and it will take him time to adjust.

So yes, for now, we gotta give Yakubu games and hope he finds more fitness, cos he really isnt tip top just yet, not far off tho, I must admit.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

Excellent post and responses all round. We do seem to be trying to play like the Spanish national team at times but without the quality in the final 3rd to make the possession pay. That's the big difference. With a team like Spain or Barça, you've got to try and close them down coz they've got so many quality options. They can all shoot, dribble and thread a ball through. This produces tried legs among the opposition. We saw how a lot of Spain's matches were won by late goals in the WC. We haven't got that level so teams can just sit back and let us stroke the ball round 40 yards out. Which is why we've got tup the tempo as NL says. Or find a Messi, Iniesta, Villa or/and Dani Alves.

 

[little curly alan ball]

Fair comment on the Title Piece , kid , but in fairness , we played more successful balls through the middle on Sat than all the other games put together !!! However , you're dead right on the possibilities it opens up . Beckford for one , would be mega-grateful . Arteta and Screech will come into their own more as our confidence grows , but not so great news on Pienaar's injury .

Interesting idea though .

 

[neonleon]

Excellent post and responses all round. We do seem to be trying to play like the Spanish national team at times but without the quality in the final 3rd to make the possession pay. That's the big difference. With a team like Spain or Barça, you've got to try and close them down coz they've got so many quality options. They can all shoot, dribble and thread a ball through. This produces tried legs among the opposition. We saw how a lot of Spain's matches were won by late goals in the WC. We haven't got that level so teams can just sit back and let us stroke the ball round 40 yards out. Which is why we've got tup the tempo as NL says. Or find a Messi, Iniesta, Villa or/and Dani Alves.

Its just up the tempo when we need to score. Attacks need to be quicker. If we have a couple of goals lead then by all means play keep ball, slow the pace of the game down, control it. But when we need to score we have to move that ball forward as much as possible without resorting to the kind of clueless hoofball of everton of yesteryear (or the newcastle match).

 

[Muggins]

Agreed, quality stuff Neon mate.

 

[neonleon]

We don't really have a forward who runs in behind, nor a specialist player capable of seeing through passes on a regular basis. Arteta can do it, Pienaar can, even Bilyaletdinov - but they don't do it on a regular basis. Yakubu's got good movement, he works the left channel well and can drop off into deeper central positions but he rarely, if ever, runs in behind opposition teams, that's never been his natural game, despite what people say.

I've said from day one that Arteta is a deep lying playmaker, he passes, he moves, he makes him available, he makes angles for players in possession and most of the time, he makes the right pass, which isn't always the spectacular one. He is the main reason we 'control' games, whether he's in form or not. I'm not doubting he's playing within himself at present, he is, but even when he's playing well, his positioning doesn't change all that much. He plays very centrally, and will more than not be on line with Fellaini, rather than ahead of him. That's not to say he can't get forward, he can and will, but he'll never be this out and out attacking midfielder.

You also have to take into account that Fellaini is still learning defensively, his off the ball movement still isn't brilliant, that's not a criticism, he'll learn with experience, but he does have a tendency to switch off at times, and fails to track runners. Arteta does alot of underrated defensive work, which goes unnoticed because he's seen as some sort of luxury playmaker.

He will never be a Thomas Gravesen, so to speak, and I know the Dane was frustrating, but he was a very creative player in the final third, and someone who was excellent at passing the ball into space. Look at how many times he put Marcus Bent through during that six month period...

I think the balance of the team in the last two games is the right one. Arteta and Fellaini in the middle of the park, 4-4-1-1, Coleman on the right handside and Yakubu upfront. We've just got to stick with it and hope certain players start contributing more and getting back to there best. You have to take into account that Coleman has played on two tight, narrow pitches in the last two games. He'll get more space at Goodison and on bigger pitches.

Its an interesting difference of opinion here. Is that Arteta naturally plays deep or rather that Fellaini has been asked to get stuck in further up the pitch. I know Moyes feels FEllaini has goals in him, so I wouldn't be surprised to know he'd asked him to get further up the field.

I was one of the people who thought Gravesen a very fine player indeed - at least for a couple of seasons (and not including when he came back with the knees of a 90 yr old), and perhaps we haven't got someone like that. If you could cross Gravesen with someone like Cahill you'd have the prototype for what we need in the position.

You've got to admit TxBlue, and I'd value your comments, that from a solely attacking point of view we are fairly one dimensional at the moment.

 

[Brownie]

Have to say I thought Seamus struggled big time with his back to goal against Birmingham. Didn't really look like he knew how to make space for a pass or get in front of a defender to shield the ball. To be expected from a full back playing on the wing I suppose, but he has played that position before in his career. His strength is always going to be driving at a defence from a deep position.

From an overall attacking point of view, we'll have a lot more options with Pienaar and Anichebe back. We're not going to see many goals coming directly through the middle, that hasn't been how we play for a long time anyway, even Andy Johnson didn't score many of those types of goals for us and that's his main strength. Nowadays we normally see Arteta playing a few passes in the middle to get us in an attacking position and then looking for an overlap on either side. With a front three of Pienaar, Yak and Anichebe occupying the places on the edge of the area, holding the ball up and looking to play it on the turn, it's an effective way to play. All those three are comfortable with their back to goal and will very rarely lose the ball from that position, so the other players know they can push on. Yak and Anichebe in particular will both score the odd goal by turning away from the runner and using their strength to make a chance for themselves as we've seen in the past.

What I would like to see is a bit more variation once we get in those overlapping positions. We're very good at scoring from whipped crosses, high or low, across the six yard box or penalty spot, but we hardly ever score from someone teeing up a shot for someone else. There's always a lot of space there because of Cahill's aerial threat, he nearly always occupies both centre backs in that situation. We saw Arteta score a couple last season that he just rolled in, great goals. It's such an easy goal to score, we should look to do it more often.

 

[neonleon]

Have to say I thought Seamus struggled big time with his back to goal against Birmingham. Didn't really look like he knew how to make space for a pass or get in front of a defender to shield the ball. To be expected from a full back playing on the wing I suppose, but he has played that position before in his career. His strength is always going to be driving at a defence from a deep position.

From an overall attacking point of view, we'll have a lot more options with Pienaar and Anichebe back. We're not going to see many goals coming directly through the middle, that hasn't been how we play for a long time anyway, even Andy Johnson didn't score many of those types of goals for us and that's his main strength. Nowadays we normally see Arteta playing a few passes in the middle to get us in an attacking position and then looking for an overlap on either side. With a front three of Pienaar, Yak and Anichebe occupying the places on the edge of the area, holding the ball up and looking to play it on the turn, it's an effective way to play. All those three are comfortable with their back to goal and will very rarely lose the ball from that position, so the other players know they can push on. Yak and Anichebe in particular will both score the odd goal by turning away from the runner and using their strength to make a chance for themselves as we've seen in the past.

What I would like to see is a bit more variation once we get in those overlapping positions. We're very good at scoring from whipped crosses, high or low, across the six yard box or penalty spot, but we hardly ever score from someone teeing up a shot for someone else. There's always a lot of space there because of Cahill's aerial threat, he nearly always occupies both centre backs in that situation. We saw Arteta score a couple last season that he just rolled in, great goals. It's such an easy goal to score, we should look to do it more often.

Personally, I don't think its right that we just dismiss goals coming from the centre. The best teams are multidimensional when it comes to attacking, they dont rely solely on long balls or crosses or what have you. If we can make all of these ways of scoring a positive for us, it will be harder to defend. AT the moment, all teams have to do is stop us down the left and we are ****ed as an attacking unit. Ok that's overly simplistic but its not a million miles away from the truth.

Rodwell would be a player to provide some penetration through the middle, sadly he's of course injured. Anichebe has also the ability and pace to play on the troublesome right wing, but has had an operation. Landon is the preferred solution but he's not our player. We'll need a long term solution sooner or later.

I agree that Coleman is better suited to the RB role. But then if we played him there now, he'd lose us a goal every game or so - he's just not got the solidity and defensive nous of a player like hibbert. Once again, through limited resources, Moyes is having to improvise makeshift solutions.

The very least the board could of done is secured Donovan by hook or by crook this off season just gone. Even if it was a year loan or something.

 

[Brownie]

Personally, I don't think its right that we just dismiss goals coming from the centre. The best teams are multidimensional when it comes to attacking, they dont rely solely on long balls or crosses or what have you. If we can make all of these ways of scoring a positive for us, it will be harder to defend. AT the moment, all teams have to do is stop us down the left and we are ****ed as an attacking unit. Ok that's overly simplistic but its not a million miles away from the truth.

Rodwell would be a player to provide some penetration through the middle, sadly he's of course inured. Anichebe has also the ability and pace to play on the troublesome right wing, but has had an operation. Landon is the preferred solution but he's not our player. We'll need a long term solution sooner or later.

I agree that Coleman is better suited to the RB role. But then if we played him there now, he'd lose us a goal every game or so - he's just not got the solidity and defensive nous of a player like hibbert. Once again, through limited resources, Moyes is having to improvise makeshift solutions.

The very least the board could of done is secured Donovan by hook or by crook this off season just gone. Even if it was a year loan or something.

We do score the odd goal through the middle, we're not completely inept at it, it's just not our main style. You need pace and/or dribbling ability to score those kind of goals, our central players have neither. You're right about Rodwell, he did bring another dimension to our play in that respect.

 

[neonleon]

We do score the odd goal through the middle, we're not completely inept at it, it's just not our main style. You need pace and/or dribbling ability to score those kind of goals, our central players have neither. You're right about Rodwell, he did bring another dimension to our play in that respect.

I dunno. I think its misrepresentative to say that our central players don't have dribbling ability. its not at the forefront of their abilities but against the likes of some teams, I'm sure mssrs Rodwell, Arteta, Fellaini, Cahill and Osman can take it past the odd player (and on the wings Pienaar, Baines and Coleman do so with alacrity). Pace is a different matter, rodwell looks like he's got an initial burst in him, arteta's not far behind, although its hardly his style to peg it blindly downfield, he's too much the artisan for that.

Part of me wonders how much of the way we attack has evolved organically, how much is down to tactics and managerial team orders and how much is improvised on the spur. I suppose to a greater or lesser extent the personnel available dictates the manner that we go about attacking teams - but we do seem to sacrifice a more holistic style of offence in order to compliment cahill's attacking prowess in the air.

 

[Brownie]

I dunno. I think its misrepresentative to say that our central players don't have dribbling ability. its not at the forefront of their abilities but against the likes of some teams, I'm sure mssrs Rodwell, Arteta, Fellaini, Cahill and Osman can take it past the odd player (and on the wings Pienaar, Baines and Coleman do so with alacrity). Pace is a different matter, rodwell looks like he's got an initial burst in him, arteta's not far behind, although its hardly his style to peg it blindly downfield, he's too much the artisan for that.

Part of me wonders how much of the way we attack has evolved organically, how much is down to tactics and managerial team orders and how much is improvised on the spur. I suppose to a greater or lesser extent the personnel available dictates the manner that we go about attacking teams - but we do seem to sacrifice a more holistic style of offence in order to compliment cahill's attacking prowess in the air.

I'd say Baines and Coleman can properly beat people, as in run through them and take them completely out of the play, that's why we use them so much. Pienaar does it every now and then, but like Osman he mainly beats people on the turn, which is more of an asset in midfield rather than in and around the area because of the space available. Arteta can beat people on the outside to make room for a pass or a cross, or with a burst when he receives a pass, but that's about it really. Cahill used to be able to do it, not so much anymore, but he's actually still very good at running with the ball in attacking positions.

 

[neonleon]

Agreed, quality stuff Neon mate.

Thanks mate.

 

[Neiler]

We don't really have a forward who runs in behind, nor a specialist player capable of seeing through passes on a regular basis. Arteta can do it, Pienaar can, even Bilyaletdinov - but they don't do it on a regular basis. Yakubu's got good movement, he works the left channel well and can drop off into deeper central positions but he rarely, if ever, runs in behind opposition teams, that's never been his natural game, despite what people say.

I've said from day one that Arteta is a deep lying playmaker, he passes, he moves, he makes him available, he makes angles for players in possession and most of the time, he makes the right pass, which isn't always the spectacular one. He is the main reason we 'control' games, whether he's in form or not. I'm not doubting he's playing within himself at present, he is, but even when he's playing well, his positioning doesn't change all that much. He plays very centrally, and will more than not be on line with Fellaini, rather than ahead of him. That's not to say he can't get forward, he can and will, but he'll never be this out and out attacking midfielder.

You also have to take into account that Fellaini is still learning defensively, his off the ball movement still isn't brilliant, that's not a criticism, he'll learn with experience, but he does have a tendency to switch off at times, and fails to track runners. Arteta does alot of underrated defensive work, which goes unnoticed because he's seen as some sort of luxury playmaker.

He will never be a Thomas Gravesen, so to speak, and I know the Dane was frustrating, but he was a very creative player in the final third, and someone who was excellent at passing the ball into space. Look at how many times he put Marcus Bent through during that six month period...

I think the balance of the team in the last two games is the right one. Arteta and Fellaini in the middle of the park, 4-4-1-1, Coleman on the right handside and Yakubu upfront. We've just got to stick with it and hope certain players start contributing more and getting back to there best. You have to take into account that Coleman has played on two tight, narrow pitches in the last two games. He'll get more space at Goodison and on bigger pitches.

I think Beckford and Saha are both those type of players, i think they cant fulfill that role unless there are two upfront. For it to work playing with one you need to goal scoring wingers who can break fast.

 

[chicoazul]

Good thread this, but I'd be clearly out of my depth trying to add anything to it.