Agent Fees.

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My money is also on the Financial Review Team. If they can just come up with the research that shows how all the top six clubs in front of us are in meltdown while Everton sit on laughing from mid-table, that'd be great.

Lads?

TBF, you have banged on about Sunderland, Villa, Pompey, WHU, Villa etc over the years in criticism of Everton - its fairly safe to say your judgement on these matters has proved a tad flawed mate. No point getting emotional when people point out misjudged faith and analyse.

Least they had a go though!
 
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TBF, you have banged on about Sunderland, Villa, Pompey, WHU Villa etc over the years in criticism of Everton - its fairly safe to say your judgement on these matters has proved a tad flawed mate. No point getting emotional when people point out misjudged faith and analyse.

Least they had a go though!

Cant remember banging on about any of them, tbh. It's fair to say at least three of the four 'had a go' themselves but didn't/dont have the right manager and scouting infrastructure to sustain their effort.

Overall though, it's fair comment to ask those who believe that we can kick on to turn their attention away from critiquing our mid-table rivals and examine those sides above us that we have to overcome.

What's the FRT's position on this?
 
Cant remember banging on about any of them, tbh. It's fair to say at least three of the four 'had a go' themselves but didn't/dont have the right manager and scouting infrastructure to sustain their effort.

Overall though, it's fair comment to ask those who believe that we can kick on to turn their attention away from critiquing our mid-table rivals and examine those sides above us that we have to overcome.

What's the FRT's position on this?

You must be jokeing mate! I will leave that one to the good readers, in terms of crediability.

Well thats a bit like the wizaed of oz saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" - in crituqing "mid table rivals", but i can understand why you want to back out of that one. Thats a very loose comment anyway as if anything was predetermined in terms of position, many varibles exist in the sense everyone starts on 0 points per season.

The provision of the enviroment to create a foundation to finish in a certain place in the league of the field is vital to support the talent and footballing talent of manager and players on it - in comparitive terms - we do it better then most, hence finishing ahead of the majority of the PL consistently - it is my beleif it definitely has an influence.

As for pushing on ive documented my views a number of times "glass ceiling" "self sustainability" "stadium" etc. I started this thread looking criticaly at how we use our turnover, you get a sense of my intentions, a balanced view is important.

Your under the assumption, that this is simply a pro or against board debate - its not really - just that you identify views that are not in coraltion to your own (or prove yours to be flawed) as such. The ability to commend and crituqe the current workings of the club is a vitaly important skill in order to be credible.
 
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You must be jokeing mate! I will leave that one to the good readers, in terms of crediability.

Well thats a bit like the wizaed of oz saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" - in crituqing "mid table rivals". Thats a very loose comment as if anything was predetermined in terms of position, many varibles exist in the sense everyone starts on 0 points per season.

The provision of the enviroment to create a foundation to finish in a certain place in the league of the field is vital to support the talent and footballing talent of manager and players on it - in comparitive terms - we do it better then most, hence finishing ahead of the majority of the PL consistently - it is my beleif it definitely has an influence.

As for pushing on ive documented my views a number of times "glass ceiling" "self sustainability" "stadium" etc. I started this thread looking criticaly at how we use our turnover, you get a sense of my intentions, a balanced view is important.

Your under the assumption, that this is simply a pro or against board debate - its not really - just that you identify views that are not in a tangent to your own or prove your to be flawed as such. The ability to commend and crituqe the current workings of the club is a vitaly important skill in order to be credible.

8th and then 7th suggests we're mid-table mate. Not an awful lot of ground to concede to at least acknowledge that much.

To be fair to you, I know you look at revenue growth and aren't entirely uncritical of the morons in the boardroom. This is why I'm scratching my head though. You know that the club is incapable of pushing on by commercial means with these people in place but somehow manage to support the status quo. Now you're (presumably?) putting your faith in the academy pulling us out of the fire, because squad building funds are less than zero, and we'll keep one or two kids and sell others on to keep the wolf from the door.

It's a massive gamble really isn't it? For someone who advocates not panicking and the need for not taking chances, that's a hell of a risk...at least as much of a risk as getting new owners in wouldn't you say?
 
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You can't afford to sponsor the review. YOU'RE MORE SKINT THAN VILLA
 
8th and then 7th suggests we're mid-table mate. Not an awful lot of ground to concede to at least acknowledge that much.

To be fair to you, I know you look at revenue growth and aren't entirely uncritical of the morons in the boardroom. This is why I'm scratching my head though. You know that the club is incapable of pushing on by commercial means with these people in place but somehow manage to support the status quo. Now you're (presumably?) putting your faith in the academy pulling us out of the fire, because squad building funds are less than zero, and we'll keep one or two kids and sell others on to keep the wolf from the door.

It's a massive gamble really isn't it? For someone who advocates not panicking and the need for not taking chances, that's a hell of a risk...at least as much of a risk as getting new owners in wouldn't you say?

Mate useing terms like keep the wolf from the door is neglable, its not true. Your opening paragraph of your last post was trying to focus the debate away from other clubs who arent selling to buy, they are selling because the viability of their clubs needs the captail. In comparitive terms and in the context of the PL enviroment presently we're along way from having the wolf at the door - those comments are really irresponsible. Comparitively we are better then the average and beyond.

I dont necessarily beleive we can CONTINUE to grow under the present regime, who i agree presently seem to be without the means or stimulas to grow turnover which is badly needed. Im not saying that will always be the case - but its the way im leaning presently - i wish we werent as reliant on a vehicle or enabler to improve infrastructure as we seem to be. That said if a scheme like DK or KD came up again - which presently doesnt even seem to be in the pipeline, i would re-evaluate. I dont like the annex because it ties us to GP for far to much of the medium term future for my likeing.

The board do a reasonably good job in manageing the overall health of the club and have done for a long time. As i outlined by begining this thread some of the use of turnover could be better managed and things like outsourceing, merchandiseing, sponsorships could be analysed IMO - but it is an opinion, there is much of the finer detail of these deals not in the public domain.

The wider debate i feel isnt as definitive as you suggest, its not a matter of the majority of people wanting to keep the board or the majority of people wanting them out - its about choice, i geuninely beleive as i have said to you there are very few parties interested in Everton. Certainly none i beileive who would be good for us. As the evaluation of Villa et al has shown. I think the club, fans - everyone conected with everton has acknowledged the need for investment or captail, it is the form this takes which is important, as much as it can be good it can be bad prob more so as Villa etc illustrate.

My own persoanal view, is it doesnt really matter who is charge of the club once the model and intent is right. I beleive the current board have the best intentions for the club, for a number of reasons we have both spoken about at nausim over the years. If they found the capatial or a vehicle to grow the clubs revenue - it would be fantastic, which is why KD and DK were massive oppurtuites missed.

In terms of footballing armgehdon, we have a very good team, i dont think we played to our full potnetial this year, i beleive there is more. I dont think we are relient on academy players or relient on the need to sell them. I think we identified the academy and rightly so as a means of reduceing our cost base and negateing the need for (even if we could afford it) big transfers, its what successfull clubs like Utd etc try and do.

I think the sell to buy thing isnt as black and white as a concept as you suggest, im struggleing to remember a player we sold who:

a) Didnt hand in a trasfer request
b ) Outstayed their usefullness
c) Ran down their contract

all three factor are not very healthy for the club. I dont think there is the need or sinister intent there many seem to do to "keep the wolf from the door" and a deep need to sell to fund the club. Last summer was evidance of this in working hard to keep our best players despite high transfer values. The context of how players leave our club is compleatly different to what we have seen at Villa and Sunderland this week which really is Wolf at the Door stuff.

I wouldnt be surprised if we have a transfer budget of 15 - 20 mill this summer tbh - depending of course, im not saying players wont leave to fund that recycleing either. With a good team, a few aquistions and a few of the promiseing youngsters their is the potential to push on IMHO. For me thats a better starting point then the majority this summer

Not saying we will win the league, because the fundamentals at the club are still not in place but the wolf is far from the door and the club is far from being neglected just blocked from growing.

Untill the infrastruture is in place this will be the case, i think everyone acknowledges this. Dealing with the frustration and making the right choices in the key, i would go mad if a Learner or Venkey came in while others would cream themselves. But the majority of fans cant deal with the frustaion of paitence in waiting for the right option.
 
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Mate useing terms like keep the wolf from the door is neglable, its not true. Your opening paragraph of your last post was trying to focus the debate away from other clubs who arent selling to buy, they are selling because the viability of their clubs needs the captail. In comparitive terms and in the context of the PL enviroment presently we're along way from having the wolf at the door - those comments are really irresponsible. Comparitively we are better then the average and beyond.

The club's auditors disagree with you mate. They had to arm wrestle the club's creditors into keeping open Everton's overdraft facility before they could sign off on the last accounts. We are in bad shape.

I dont necessarily beleive we can CONTINUE to grow under the present regime, who i agree presently seem to be without the means or stimulas to grow turnover which is badly needed. Im not saying that will always be the case - but its the way im leaning presently - i wish we werent as reliant on a vehicle or enabler to improve infrastructure as we seem to be. That said if a scheme like DK or KD came up again - which presently doesnt even seem to be in the pipeline, i would re-evaluate. I dont like the annex because it ties us to GP for far to much of the medium term future for my likeing.

So we're agreed on that at least: the current board are absolutley clueless in pushing the club forward.

The board do a reasonably good job in manageing the overall health of the club and have done for a long time. As i outlined by begining this thread some of the use of turnover could be better managed and things like outsourceing, merchandiseing, sponsorships could be analysed IMO - but it is an opinion, there is much of the finer detail of these deals not in the public domain.

They've more than doubled the short term debt of the club, saddled it with a huge headache with the securitization deal, and decreased the independence of the club by outsourcing almost every product and service it used to carry out for itself.

The wider debate i feel isnt as definitive as you suggest, its not a matter of the majority of people wanting to keep the board or the majority of people wanting them out - its about choice, i geuninely beleive as i have said to you there are very few parties interested in Everton. Certainly none i beileive who would be good for us. As the evaluation of Villa et al has shown. I think the club, fans - everyone conected with everton has acknowledged the need for investment or captail, it is the form this takes which is important, as much as it can be good it can be bad prob more so as Villa etc illustrate.

My own persoanal view, is it doesnt really matter who is charge of the club once the model and intent is right. I beleive the current board have the best intentions for the club, for a number of reasons we have both spoken about at nausim over the years. If they found the capatial or a vehicle to grow the clubs revenue - it would be fantastic, which is why KD and DK were massive oppurtuites missed.

I dont understand this bit: you're saying that the current board have failed to deliver on their facility led model for growth...but that it doesn't really matter if the present board with their record of abysmal failure carry on or some other people come in?

I think the sell to buy thing isnt as black and white as a concept as you suggest, im struggleing to remember a player we sold who:

a) Didnt hand in a trasfer request
b ) Outstayed their usefullness
c) Ran down their contract

all three factor are not very healthy for the club. I dont think there is the need or sinister intent there many seem to do to "keep the wolf from the door" and a deep need to sell to fund the club. Last summer was evidance of this in working hard to keep our best players despite high transfer values. The context of how players leave our club is compleatly different to what we have seen at Villa and Sunderland this week which really is Wolf at the Door stuff.

You're making a huge distinction between the type of firesale we see at other clubs and the constant shaving of Everton's squad. It's just a matter of pace not policy. Everton are every bit the selling club those basket cases are (and I''l guarantee right now there'll be no net spend this summer...can you argue the case for the reverse?).
 
You have to admit mate, there's some symmetry to this: Damon says that Kenwright gets £3M p.a. scouting fees and our agents fees come to a staggering £3.5M.

I think we may have been a little harsh on Matt. Kenwright is trousering £3M. Nice bit of research there from the Neiler/Damon Financial Review.

Why? Was Bill's scouting fees just a one off for 2010/11?

Matt, can you explain the difference between scouting and agents fees with regard to Everton's £3.5M bill. Cheers.

Maybe when you get back?

What I'm driving at here is that this (scouting fees demanded by Bill) could be the source of the huge outgoing. I'm sorry I doubted you now. That said, the disticntion between scouting fee and agents fee - and how that works out splitting the pot between them - needs clarifying.

I'm looking into if these Scouting Fees are infact one and the same as the Agents Fees.

The fact the amounts match up entirely suggests they are.


However I'm sure you can appreciate the outrage of Damon, when money starts going out under generic "scouting fees" tags how can anyone be sure it's for the club, or going to Kenwright et al. ? This is the dodgy grey area of football finance.


Scouting fees was the term that was put originally three months ago. In a monthly figure.
 

I'm looking into if these Scouting Fees are infact one and the same as the Agents Fees.

The fact the amounts match up entirely suggests they are.


However I'm sure you can appreciate the outrage of Damon, when money starts going out under generic "scouting fees" tags how can anyone be sure it's for the club, or going to Kenwright et al. ? This is the dodgy grey area of football finance.


Scouting fees was the term that was put originally three months ago. In a monthly figure.

Did you just refer to yourself in the third person?
 
I'm looking into if these Scouting Fees are infact one and the same as the Agents Fees.

The fact the amounts match up entirely suggests they are.


However I'm sure you can appreciate the outrage of Damon, when money starts going out under generic "scouting fees" tags how can anyone be sure it's for the club, or going to Kenwright et al. ? This is the dodgy grey area of football finance.


Scouting fees was the term that was put originally three months ago. In a monthly figure.

Have I got this right here - you are now stepping away from the 'BILL KENWRIGHT GETS £3M PER ANNUM SCOUTING FEES' line?
 
Have I got this right here - you are now stepping away from the 'BILL KENWRIGHT GETS £3M PER ANNUM SCOUTING FEES' line?

Money's going out the club, under a dubious term. Agents are dubious. Club owners can often be very dubious (Lerner, Venkey's and all your saviours of the past!).


We shall see.
 

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