Academy Failure?

[catcherintherye]

I'm saying I don't regard kids we buy/borrow from other clubs at 17 years of age as academy products. Fabregas wasn't an Arsenal academy player, for instance, nor Pogba a Man Utd one.

It's a fair point, but if we take our city rivals, in the last 15 years I can only think of Arnold they have actually brought through as a local lad who they didn't sign for their under 18's. in that time we have brought through Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Osman, Hibbert, Barkley, Rodwell, Davies etc.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's a fair point, but if we take our city rivals, in the last 15 years I can only think of Arnold they have actually brought through as a local lad who they didn't sign for their under 18's. in that time we have brought through Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Osman, Hibbert, Barkley, Rodwell, Davies etc.

Don't get me wrong, it's quite probably a failure of many of the bigger teams in our league. If rather than having five players in the winning England youth team however, we had five players in an England senior world cup winning team, our prospects would be changed beyond recognition. Instead, I'd be surprised if any of those five lads even have much of a career with us, much less become England regulars.

 

[Raino85]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but before the transfer ban, they were all loaned out, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with them next year!

The likes of someone like Mount & Reece James have been loaned out very early, we tend to wait a little longer to get these loans done wether its a case of teams like Liverpool, Chelsea etc having a better reputation so they cna get there kids out quicker.
The whole of the Davies generation should of been out alot earlier (but once they are it is up to them to perform......see Kieran Dowell, Anthonee Robinson.) The likes of Mount, James & Abraham all proved they were stars in the division below, and lucky enough to get the opportunity with the transfer ban. Although i think Mount & James would of got that opportunity regardless.
We have Gordon now who is 2 years younger than Mount, who had already been on loan at Vitesse and sooon to be playing for Derby.
Lewis Gibson has been criminally treated and to an extent Morgan Feeny & Beni Baningime too.
Gordon is my main worry, as he goes away with England and see's players of his quality or less begin to make appearences for the first team and he still cant get past Oumar Niasse on the bench. I'd really consider going to Brands and asking for a loan if he isnt in first team plans from january.
You look at Gibson who is even older than Gordon, excelled in pre season & has seen his good friend Matty Longstaff scoring winners vrs Man Utd & he cant even make the bench in an injury crisis! No wonder he wont sign a new contract

 

[Groucho]

I think this guy may just not like the fact alot of our team now are of a certain colour

No need at all.

 

[Lanolin]

The likes of someone like Mount & Reece James have been loaned out very early, we tend to wait a little longer to get these loans done wether its a case of teams like Liverpool, Chelsea etc having a better reputation so they cna get there kids out quicker.
The whole of the Davies generation should of been out alot earlier (but once they are it is up to them to perform......see Kieran Dowell, Anthonee Robinson.) The likes of Mount, James & Abraham all proved they were stars in the division below, and lucky enough to get the opportunity with the transfer ban. Although i think Mount & James would of got that opportunity regardless.
We have Gordon now who is 2 years younger than Mount, who had already been on loan at Vitesse and sooon to be playing for Derby.
Lewis Gibson has been criminally treated and to an extent Morgan Feeny & Beni Baningime too.
Gordon is my main worry, as he goes away with England and see's players of his quality or less begin to make appearences for the first team and he still cant get past Oumar Niasse on the bench. I'd really consider going to Brands and asking for a loan if he isnt in first team plans from january.
You look at Gibson who is even older than Gordon, excelled in pre season & has seen his good friend Matty Longstaff scoring winners vrs Man Utd & he cant even make the bench in an injury crisis! No wonder he wont sign a new contract

Matty Longstaff has played 3 games for Newcastle, he's hardly evidence of a thriving academy or clear pathway to the first team. At the same age Tom Davies had played about 60 games for us.

Who are all these England under 19s that Gordon's going away with and hearing about their first team games? I think one, maybe two of that group have played PL football, the rest haven't even made the bench. It's embarrassing some of the cry arsing about youngsters. According to some on here we've somehow managed to have about 10 successive managers who treat young players badly and they would all be absolutely amazing if they just got a chance. Still waiting for one to go elsewhere and prove the club wrong though.

 

[catcherintherye]

Matty Longstaff has played 3 games for Newcastle, he's hardly evidence of a thriving academy or clear pathway to the first team. At the same age Tom Davies had played about 60 games for us.

Who are all these England under 19s that Gordon's going away with and hearing about their first team games? I think one, maybe two of that group have played PL football, the rest haven't even made the bench. It's embarrassing some of the cry arsing about youngsters. According to some on here we've somehow managed to have about 10 successive managers who treat young players badly and they would all be absolutely amazing if they just got a chance. Still waiting for one to go elsewhere and prove the club wrong though.

Do you think we have developed players, from 18-22 well enough, in general over the past few years or beyond that?

 

[Lanolin]

Do you think we have developed players, from 18-22 well enough, in general over the past few years or beyond that?

I think it's a very difficult question to answer with any degree of accuracy, unless you work with the players themselves. People get excited about young players all the time, but that doesn't mean they're going to be stars. Look at someone like Kenny for example. Theoretically, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way he has been handled. It's almost textbook in fact. League 2 loan, league 1 loan, step up into the first team squad, 40 games for us at 21. I've said since I first saw him at PL level though, he just doesn't look very good. He's OK, but I can't imagine him being a top quality player, he just doesn't look good enough to me. I remember seeing Reece James last year without realising he was a Chelsea loanee and thinking wow this kid looks a player. I've just not seen that from Kenny at senior level, so it's hard for me to say that we've failed him when I think he just doesn't have the ability to go as far as people thought.

People love to say 'but he was an England under whatever' as if it means they were destined for greatness but it doesn't. There was a load of hand wringing over Ledson and Walsh going, but they've done nothing to suggest that the club got it wrong about them, despite leaving our academy at the sort of age you're talking about.

 

[riddick]

Think this should be brought back up. We have nowhere near any success from home grown talent that others around us have. Tom Davies being the "best" we have over the last 4 years is madness.

 

[Huyton Layne]

Think this should be brought back up. We have nowhere near any success from home grown talent that others around us have. Tom Davies being the "best" we have over the last 4 years is madness.

Ross Barkley just played the game of his life. He's from our academy.

 

[Toffeelover]

Do you think we have developed players, from 18-22 well enough, in general over the past few years or beyond that?

Ask Unsworth.

 

[Bigduke1234]

Is rhino being replaced? In a parallel universe, we play the kids now and beat the RS on Monday...

 

[kenada_blue]

Think this should be brought back up. We have nowhere near any success from home grown talent that others around us have. Tom Davies being the "best" we have over the last 4 years is madness.

The RS have had Gerrard for the past 20 years. Next one is TTA. Surely that's worse?

If we're talking about Chelsea...their form nose dived off a cliff with their "youth" since Xmas. So much so they went and bought Ziyech for £40mill when their ban got lifted. They'll also spend big on a striker and CB in the summer no doubt.

 

[kiss the crest]

We are led to believe that we have a fantastic youth set up, yet we haven’t brought anyone through for a long time into the 1st team and we have thought what a player, or sold anyone for any decent money apart from Rooney and Barkley, but we’re talking 15 and 4 years ago.

So yes our youth set up is failing at the moment for one reason or another

 

[carolinablue232]

Do we give up on youngsters too soon and move them on? Duffy and Lundstram could both be adding to the side currently. Robinson by all accounts had played well in the championship. We’re still producing some quality but it’s such a jump from the youths to prem ready. Some get there later though.

 

[Archie Knox]

I thought our u23s were ace the last couple of years. Why has only one of them got onto the pitch in the first team? Gordon I am talking about, by the way. I guess we can include Baningame as well, but seeing as he's not only disappeared from the first team since 2018, he's even been shipped out to Tranmere n'all.