Academy Failure?

[Bruce Wayne]

I suppose technically you could include Eric Dier.

He was signed in the same way Stones was signed, which is why I didn't include either as neither were products of our academy.

 

[Nymzee]

He was signed in the same way Stones was signed, which is why I didn't include either as neither were products of our academy.

Dier was only on loan for a year so wasn’t even the same as Stones.

 

[MickA]

It's been a really sad development over the last few years, particularly since Moshiri has came. In no particular order I would say;

1) We've employed managers who had no long term interest in Everton or developing it's younger players.
2) We've sought to spend cash on buying experience to cover for positions and thus blocked opportunities.
3) At the tip of the club, we have not set a vision where introducing academy players has long term benefits for the entire club.

Even in this managerial chase, very little if any scrutiny seems to be given to having a manager who is prepared to commit to and evidence their record of developing young players for an academy. It's not a priority.

You have lads like Antony Gordon now, who are just not being given game time which is needed, because it's easier to play more experienced players.

As with many things at the club, it's really sort sighted.

Chelsea at the weekend summed up the way the academy is being run.

We have two fit CB's in the squad so where was Gibson? Or even Feeney?

We had two fit CM's in the squad.. Baningime, Adeniran, Markelo, none are teenagers anymore and all nowhere near the bench. Niasse even got on there.

I don't see any pathways into first team football for that U23 squad.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Dier was only on loan for a year so wasn’t even the same as Stones.

Neither were academy products though, which was my point.

 

[blueloon]

Chelsea at the weekend summed up the way the academy is being run.

We have two fit CB's in the squad so where was Gibson? Or even Feeney?

We had two fit CM's in the squad.. Baningime, Adeniran, Markelo, none are teenagers anymore and all nowhere near the bench. Niasse even got on there.

I don't see any pathways into first team football for that U23 squad.

But does is really “sum up the way the Academy is being run” ? The players were there as you mention and certainly Gibson could cover left back and left CB , instead we had 34 year old Baines with no CB cover. And the one you didn’t mention , Anthony Gordon, would certainly have provided something different than either Tosun or Oumar , we didn’t need both. Both Gibson and Gordon are part of the England set up for their age group, a marker that suggests they would be close to first team appearances . And , as I’ve posted before, under Silva not one U23s player played first team PL minutes for the first time, a fairly damning statistic . Our Academy can certainly be improved, but for me there has been a disconnect between Academy and first team that needs addressing, just training with the first team is not enough.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

But does is really “sum up the way the Academy is being run” ? The players were there as you mention and certainly Gibson could cover left back and left CB , instead we had 34 year old Baines with no CB cover. And the one you didn’t mention , Anthony Gordon, would certainly have provided something different than either Tosun or Oumar , we didn’t need both. Both Gibson and Gordon are part of the England set up for their age group, a marker that suggests they would be close to first team appearances . And , as I’ve posted before, under Silva not one U23s player played first team PL minutes for the first time, a fairly damning statistic . Our Academy can certainly be improved, but for me there has been a disconnect between Academy and first team that needs addressing, just training with the first team is not enough.

Unsworth is that ‘disconnect’.

 

[Lanolin]

He was signed in the same way Stones was signed, which is why I didn't include either as neither were products of our academy.

Dier was only on loan for a year so wasn’t even the same as Stones.

It depends what you class as an academy product I suppose. Dier spent 18 months in our academy before he played a senior game, which is nothing like Stones really, as he was already a senior player before we brought him in. It depends whether you're crediting the academy with finding a player before anyone else, or developing a player that somebody else spotted into a quality senior player. I think most coaches would see the development as the bigger achievement but fans have a peculiar thing about unearthing kids that nobody else had seen.

 

[Deleted member 28206]

Absoloutely agree, our academy has produced nobody of note as far as i can remember.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It depends what you class as an academy product I suppose. Dier spent 18 months in our academy before he played a senior game, which is nothing like Stones really, as he was already a senior player before we brought him in. It depends whether you're crediting the academy with finding a player before anyone else, or developing a player that somebody else spotted into a quality senior player. I think most coaches would see the development as the bigger achievement but fans have a peculiar thing about unearthing kids that nobody else had seen.

Dier was 17 when he came to us on loan so it seems to be clutching at straws to claim him as in any way a success for the academy, especially as he didn't make a single first team experience for the club. Both Stones and Holgate were 19 when they came to Everton, and they're not academy products either.

The fact is, if you go back to the Rooney era, we've produced some reasonable pros, like Osman, Hibbert, Anichebe, Rodwell and Davies, but only really Barkley who ever threatened to be the kind of player that would regularly turn out for the kind of teams we're looking to overhaul.

 

[Lanolin]

Dier was 17 when he came to us on loan so it seems to be clutching at straws to claim him as in any way a success for the academy, especially as he didn't make a single first team experience for the club. Both Stones and Holgate were 19 when they came to Everton, and they're not academy products either.

The fact is, if you go back to the Rooney era, we've produced some reasonable pros, like Osman, Hibbert, Anichebe, Rodwell and Davies, but only really Barkley who ever threatened to be the kind of player that would regularly turn out for the kind of teams we're looking to overhaul.

Not sure that really addresses the point I was making? Actually I am sure, it doesn't.

 

[Raino85]

Don't know how old you are, mate, but the standard of English footballer has been in decline since the 70s and this present bunch are as bad as anything I've seen.The illusion England are better largely comes from a decent showing in the world club amidst some of the worst international teams I've ever seen. Raheem Sterling one of our top performers barely has control of the ball when he runs with it

I think this guy may just not like the fact alot of our team now are of a certain colour

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Not sure that really addresses the point I was making? Actually I am sure, it doesn't.

I'm saying I don't regard kids we buy/borrow from other clubs at 17 years of age as academy products. Fabregas wasn't an Arsenal academy player, for instance, nor Pogba a Man Utd one.

 

[Lanolin]

I'm saying I don't regard kids we buy/borrow from other clubs at 17 years of age as academy products. Fabregas wasn't an Arsenal academy player, for instance, nor Pogba a Man Utd one.

And that's a perfectly valid opinion. It's only an opinion though, not a fact. My point was that a player who spent 18 months (arguably the most important 18 months) of his development in our academy system has gone on to be very successful. That tells me that the issues you're talking about are not with our academy. They may be with our scouts (not identifying talent early enough) or with our first team set up (not giving people the opportunity to play) but it highlights that the academy is perfectly capable of allowing players to develop.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

And that's a perfectly valid opinion. It's only an opinion though, not a fact. My point was that a player who spent 18 months (arguably the most important 18 months) of his development in our academy system has gone on to be very successful. That tells me that the issues you're talking about are not with our academy. They may be with our scouts (not identifying talent early enough) or with our first team set up (not giving people the opportunity to play) but it highlights that the academy is perfectly capable of allowing players to develop.

Before the Moshiri era we barely had a pot to pee in, so players were given a lot of opportunities to play in the first team. Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, Osman, Hibbert et al came through and made a contribution to the squad. While all of them were solid pros, none was the kind of player who would allow us to make the leap up (ie players who would make 50 caps for England). Since Rooney, we've managed to produce one player (Barkley) who comes even close to that, which is poor. You could argue that since Moshiri we don't give players an opportunity, and if Dowell et al had gone out and torn it up as Kenny appears to be doing, I'd be inclined to agree, but they haven't. And to be honest, even with Kenny, well though he's doing in Germany, would you trade him for Walker, Wan Bassaka, Trippier or Alexander Arnold?

 

[Lanolin]

Before the Moshiri era we barely had a pot to pee in, so players were given a lot of opportunities to play in the first team. Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, Osman, Hibbert et al came through and made a contribution to the squad. While all of them were solid pros, none was the kind of player who would allow us to make the leap up (ie players who would make 50 caps for England). Since Rooney, we've managed to produce one player (Barkley) who comes even close to that, which is poor. You could argue that since Moshiri we don't give players an opportunity, and if Dowell et al had gone out and torn it up as Kenny appears to be doing, I'd be inclined to agree, but they haven't. And to be honest, even with Kenny, well though he's doing in Germany, would you trade him for Walker, Wan Bassaka, Trippier or Alexander Arnold?

I agree with you. You're missing the point i'm making. Dier spent 18 months in our academy and is the sort of 50 cap player you're talking about. So it's not the coaching in the academy that's the issue, because when a player is of the required level they're still breaking through. None of the players you've mentioned ever looked like being that sort of talent, at any point. Not one of those players came into the side and looked like a star, you can only coach so much, the raw talent has to be there to work with, and the likes of Kenny and Dowell simply don't have it.