6 + 2 Point Deductions

[Drico]

Need to drop the Man City argument now and hammer home about 'punish the fans' narrative I think. Also how 10 points is unjust.

Not really. People saying "City's case is different" or "complex" are correct, but completely missing the point. The Premier League is incapable of regulating its own clubs fairly. As a result, it is in no position to hit the likes of Everton and Forest and wring its hands about City if it wants to project the idea that it oversees an even playing field.

If City's case is "complex'' - too complex for the Premier League to ensure it can deal with City in a reasonable time frame, then it is in no position to summarily dispense justice to Everton and Forest. In reality, it is in NO position to regulate a club run by a nation state. And THIS is the issue. The Premier League is out of its depth. The Tories have eaten football with their acceptance of money, no matter how blood-stained. And far too many of the "working class" have cheered them on.

 

[AndyC]

That post absolutely proves it, do one kopite.

Knock it off with the kopite shouts - it's tedious.

 

[gwladysnight]

It doesn't change that much, does it?

However, it's not always the same 6 teams that finish in there, so you're right to a degree. It does beg the question though; why do we have a so-called 'big 6' then? Couldn't possibly be PR spin, could it?

Remember when it was just the big 4? Liverpool had a spell of being out of it, and the media, mainly Sky, were forced to create another narrative.

I like to call it the 'ABC'...

Agenda.
Bias.
Cult worship.

I remember when we were part of the big 4 though. So if it is a cartel that stops competition how have we ended up fighting relegation?

This season Villa and West Ham are in the top 6. Last season it was Newcastle and Brighton before that we have had the likes of Leicester and Southampton.

Isn't it about how well run you are? I mean look at Chelsea they are 9th and finished 12th last season.

 

[PITA]

Could someone explain this cartel to me?

It gets mentioned a hell of a lot. I think it is Sky, the Top 6 and the Premier league.

If it is a cartel though why are TNT and Amazon allowed to show games?

Why does the top 6 continually change?

And above all if the top 6 and Sky are in cahoots then why did Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Spurs and United want to join a European Super League that Sky wouldn't be showing?

Out of interest, Sky don't show the Champions League so I'm not sure the reference to to Sky not showing ESL games is relevant.

 

[arch stanton]

Need to drop the Man City argument now and hammer home about 'punish the fans' narrative I think. Also how 10 points is unjust.

I agree,it's like Fred West 's defence being"yeah but look at that Shipman fella, he's the wrong 'un"

 

[John from Bootle]

I remember when we were part of the big 4 though. So if it is a cartel that stops competition how have we ended up fighting relegation?

This season Villa and West Ham are in the top 6. Last season it was Newcastle and Brighton before that we have had the likes of Leicester and Southampton.

Isn't it about how well run you are? I mean look at Chelsea they are 9th and finished 12th last season.

A cartel is an entity that restricts competition. I assume when people say that, they are referring to the Premier League and their rules and referees.

I haven't even mentioned the word cartel, so nice try, but it's just a straw-man argument you've provided there.

My post was in relation to media bias. And almost certainly highlights 2 facts that prove it exists.

 

[GrandOldSte117]

Not really. People saying "City's case is different" or "complex" are correct, but completely missing the point. The Premier League is incapable of regulating its own clubs fairly. As a result, it is in no position to hit the likes of Everton and Forest and wring its hands about City if it wants to project the idea that it oversees an even playing field.

If City's case is "complex'' - too complex for the Premier League to ensure it can deal with City in a reasonable time frame, then it is in no position to summarily dispense justice to Everton and Forest. In reality, it is in NO position to regulate a club run by a nation state. And THIS is the issue. The Premier League is out of its depth. The Tories have eaten football with their acceptance of money, no matter how blood-stained. And far too many of the "working class" have cheered them on.

Ye fair enough. Good argument

 

[arch stanton]

Not really. People saying "City's case is different" or "complex" are correct, but completely missing the point. The Premier League is incapable of regulating its own clubs fairly. As a result, it is in no position to hit the likes of Everton and Forest and wring its hands about City if it wants to project the idea that it oversees an even playing field.

If City's case is "complex'' - too complex for the Premier League to ensure it can deal with City in a reasonable time frame, then it is in no position to summarily dispense justice to Everton and Forest. In reality, it is in NO position to regulate a club run by a nation state. And THIS is the issue. The Premier League is out of its depth. The Tories have eaten football with their acceptance of money, no matter how blood-stained. And far too many of the "working class" have cheered them on.

This brother!!

 

[Toffeepot]

Could someone explain this cartel to me?

It gets mentioned a hell of a lot. I think it is Sky, the Top 6 and the Premier league.

If it is a cartel though why are TNT and Amazon allowed to show games?

Why does the top 6 continually change?

And above all if the top 6 and Sky are in cahoots then why did Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Spurs and United want to join a European Super League that Sky wouldn't be showing?

The cartel are the clubs you mentioned
The top6 only temporarily changes because of FFP etc (see Villa and Newcastle unable to buy)
They are a cartel because they cooperated to get themselves the best deals by using their position of dominance to gain an unfair advantage
They used this position to blackmail UEFA to improve CL standing based on a new coefficient with Super League
They blackmailed the Premier League with the Super League reminding them that the PL depend on them, even though that is the other way round in reality
They used their position to get favourable treatment from other clubs in the PL such as 5 subs, less Carabou cup minutes, next removing FA cup replays, increased TV income and the creation of a glass ceiling to limit the progress of other clubs.
Any vote to change the inequality can be easily outvoted by the 6 and the buying of a vote from another club with promises of loan deals etc.
They have already shown themselves to cooperate behind closed doors by signing up to the super league
Hope that helps
Cartel 6

 

[Neiler]

Your rebuttal would have been fine if it had been relevant to FFP. It wasn't.

As relevant as posting the term FFP in a 1069 page thread on Profit and Sustainability rules, it’s not.

 

[PhilEFC]

Not really. People saying "City's case is different" or "complex" are correct, but completely missing the point. The Premier League is incapable of regulating its own clubs fairly. As a result, it is in no position to hit the likes of Everton and Forest and wring its hands about City if it wants to project the idea that it oversees an even playing field.

If City's case is "complex'' - too complex for the Premier League to ensure it can deal with City in a reasonable time frame, then it is in no position to summarily dispense justice to Everton and Forest. In reality, it is in NO position to regulate a club run by a nation state. And THIS is the issue. The Premier League is out of its depth. The Tories have eaten football with their acceptance of money, no matter how blood-stained. And far too many of the "working class" have cheered them on.

Great post.

 

[gwladysnight]

The cartel are the clubs you mentioned
The top6 only temporarily changes because of FFP etc (see Villa and Newcastle unable to buy)
They are a cartel because they cooperated to get themselves the best deals by using their position of dominance to gain an unfair advantage
They used this position to blackmail UEFA to improve CL standing based on a new coefficient with Super League
They blackmailed the Premier League with the Super League reminding them that the PL depend on them, even though that is the other way round in reality
They used their position to get favourable treatment from other clubs in the PL such as 5 subs, less Carabou cup minutes, next removing FA cup replays, increased TV income and the creation of a glass ceiling to limit the progress of other clubs.
Any vote to change the inequality can be easily outvoted by the 6 and the buying of a vote from another club with promises of loan deals etc.
They have already shown themselves to cooperate behind closed doors by signing up to the super league
Hope that helps
Cartel 6

Firstly thank you for a well-thought-out out and reasoned reply.

I think you are right and there is an element of truth in what you have posted. The thing is though that it was far less competitive before FFP. The big 4 were Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man United. Between 05 and 12 those big 4 teams featured in 7 out of 8 CL finals.

If you look back to the start of the PL we were one of the big 4 and one of the chief protagonists in the formation of the breakaway League. Have Spurs overtaken us because of a cartel or just because they have been far better run?

 

[WestStandLower]

Not really. People saying "City's case is different" or "complex" are correct, but completely missing the point. The Premier League is incapable of regulating its own clubs fairly. As a result, it is in no position to hit the likes of Everton and Forest and wring its hands about City if it wants to project the idea that it oversees an even playing field.

If City's case is "complex'' - too complex for the Premier League to ensure it can deal with City in a reasonable time frame, then it is in no position to summarily dispense justice to Everton and Forest. In reality, it is in NO position to regulate a club run by a nation state. And THIS is the issue. The Premier League is out of its depth. The Tories have eaten football with their acceptance of money, no matter how blood-stained. And far too many of the "working class" have cheered them on.

It is being suggested that the number of documents that will submitted in the City case will be way in excess 250k bearing in mind for just the one charge in Evertons case it was over28k i would suggest the number is probably going to be closer to 500k

I don’t think for one second that the PL has ever considered the City case too complex its more to do with time after time the PL were thwarted by Cities actions or more likely in actions .

The charges weren’t actually made till Feb 23 it was said at the time that the very nature and extent of the charges would probably mean that it would be not just a year or two before a commission would sit but more like 4 or so years.

Of course the PL are able to deal with these matters the IP isn’t run by a group of ill qualified individuals they are in the main senior professionals. If what we are talking about is the process then that’s a whole different matter but if anyone believes that an Independent Regulator who will have to deal with these sort of matters will improve timings or process then sadly they will be disappointed

 

[Lob]

If the PL say that City's case is complex then it isn't. They lie about everything and blatantly protect 6 'big' clubs and don't give a toss about 14 'small' clubs. If they wanted to deal with City then they would have got in whatever resources they required and done it, end of. They don't want to punish them because they class them as elite.

Masters has literally just sat in front of a governmental committee and lied. Just as if they are honest behind closed doors.

 

[Neiler]

It is being suggested that the number of documents that will submitted in the City case will be way in excess 250k bearing in mind for just the one charge in Evertons case it was over28k i would suggest the number is probably going to be closer to 500k

I don’t think for one second that the PL has ever considered the City case too complex its more to do with time after time the PL were thwarted by Cities actions or more likely in actions .

The charges weren’t actually made till Feb 23 it was said at the time that the very nature and extent of the charges would probably mean that it would be not just a year or two before a commission would sit but more like 4 or so years.

Of course the PL are able to deal with these matters the IP isn’t run by a group of ill qualified individuals they are in the main senior professionals. If what we are talking about is the process then that’s a whole different matter but if anyone believes that an Independent Regulator who will have to deal with these sort of matters will improve timings or process then sadly they will be disappointed

Why can’t they deal with one charge at a time?