This a million times over. Formations don't attack. Players do.
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This a million times over. Formations don't attack. Players do.
Blitzer2011
Player Valuation: £950k
yeah neville in midfield is bad, as much as i hate heity in midfield id play him with felli over nevs. cant see why vellios and barkley are nowere near the team right now (for barkley maybe he's just keeping him out of the window for now if thats the case then ok im happy dont want either rodders or barkles going) but vellios? he has 3 goals doesnt he? moyes stop letting the fire on your head burn your brain we need goals....
TippEverton
Player Valuation: £35m
THIS! We may well have had 2 front men playing last night , but you would nearly shed a tear on seeing those 2 as your centre midfield pairing .
Blitzer2011
Player Valuation: £950k
yeah id rather play anichebe in midfield than neville
You are totally correct. We could turn the clock back 25 years and have Gray and Lineker as our front two but they won't do any damage if Heitinga and Neville are put on the pitch to provide the ammo.
Bigmaclad
No mate
You messing mate. He's huge and intimidating.
This photo has majorly creeped me out.
Azzurri
Player Valuation: £70m
sotnas
Player Valuation: £10m
Cut off the hoofing and we'll be good.
We do have some fine players who can play the game in the right way.
Look at Saha... he's not a hoofball type of player. At United they don't hoof the ball and he was prolific enough.
The best match I remember watching was at Arsenal. Fellaini dominating the center field and Pienaar running the show. No ****ing hoofing and the ball was played properly.
Donovan is back, right? Will he be wasted on the right wing?
We do have some fine players who can play the game in the right way.
Look at Saha... he's not a hoofball type of player. At United they don't hoof the ball and he was prolific enough.
The best match I remember watching was at Arsenal. Fellaini dominating the center field and Pienaar running the show. No ****ing hoofing and the ball was played properly.
Donovan is back, right? Will he be wasted on the right wing?
bullensview
Player Valuation: £1.5m
i agree with the sentiments of the post. we played 4-4-2, which i believe is a dated formation, but we have rarely played a 4-2-3-1 this season. it has been 4 flat mf with cahill behind saha.
If we did revert to a "proper" 4-2-3-1 it would be creative and yet solid. I recently wrote an article regarding this (although rushed as atm I cba writing about everton), saying that we have a bright future for a good 4-2-3-1. To play the formation properly, it is ideal to play with attacking full backs with the dm's covering. basically it frees space on flanks and allows attacking players the freedom to play. moyes has rarely played this way but did for a spell with pienaar and ossie on flanks, arteta (playing a deep lying playmaker) and cars holding deeper and cahill off bent/aj. Best football I've seen since I've been watching.
Sad to see us regress to the football that we are now playing
If we did revert to a "proper" 4-2-3-1 it would be creative and yet solid. I recently wrote an article regarding this (although rushed as atm I cba writing about everton), saying that we have a bright future for a good 4-2-3-1. To play the formation properly, it is ideal to play with attacking full backs with the dm's covering. basically it frees space on flanks and allows attacking players the freedom to play. moyes has rarely played this way but did for a spell with pienaar and ossie on flanks, arteta (playing a deep lying playmaker) and cars holding deeper and cahill off bent/aj. Best football I've seen since I've been watching.
Sad to see us regress to the football that we are now playing
Had to laugh at this argument.
And the excuse for the rest of the season when we've had 4-5-1? Defeats against QPR, Blackburn, Fulham, Stoke and West Brom???
In a perfect world I would agree with you on the 4-2-3-1, although I don't personally think 4-4-2 is that dated and would almost certainly have brought us more joy if we had actually had two attacking midfielders in the middle rather than Neville and Heitinga. Nev is clearly past his best and Heitinga (whilst still being a reasonable player) was just played out of position and in a role he could not fulfill.
Unfortunately, I think with Arteta and Pienaar gone, Osman injured and Cahill seeming to age too quickly, 4-2-3-1 won't work for us as we don't have the attacking midfielders to play in the "3". It's tragic really.
PeterMeter
Player Valuation: £1m
There's a big difference in playing the 4-2-3-1 that Moyes uses; with no movement, a shaky right back with below-par-delivery (I still love you Hibbo!), two centrebacks that more often than not play hoofball, and a crocked striker who doesn't seem arsed and no creative outlet. We hardly ever manage to tie the ball down in the attacking third, and this is because there's no movement from the 3-4 attacking players; to playing a 'top 4-esque' 4-2-3-1 where one of the holding midfielders always push forward (Yaya Toure, Ramires etc) to support the attack, the wingers play more like outright strikers/wingers (Aguero, Dzeko, Silva and Sturridge, Torres, Mata or very tal) and they have exceptional playmakers or are suffering because of it (Chelsea).
ManU do seem to play more of a traditional 4-4-2 though, with the usual wingers crossing from deep and one forward playing off the other. It seems to work for them.
As has been mentioned though, I don't feel like our formation is the biggest problem right now. The lack of belief, and will to make runs for the team is. We have little to no movement and no creativity from midfield. We are so dependant on Osman now it's not even funny, and I'd hate to see him off with a long term injury now. I struggle to see how we'd be worse off against Bolton with Osman in the middle together with Heitinga instead of Nev and Gueye on the left from the start. Relying on Heitinga to find the through balls was mental, even if he did a half-decent job of it until all the injuries hit.
ManU do seem to play more of a traditional 4-4-2 though, with the usual wingers crossing from deep and one forward playing off the other. It seems to work for them.
As has been mentioned though, I don't feel like our formation is the biggest problem right now. The lack of belief, and will to make runs for the team is. We have little to no movement and no creativity from midfield. We are so dependant on Osman now it's not even funny, and I'd hate to see him off with a long term injury now. I struggle to see how we'd be worse off against Bolton with Osman in the middle together with Heitinga instead of Nev and Gueye on the left from the start. Relying on Heitinga to find the through balls was mental, even if he did a half-decent job of it until all the injuries hit.
The system is irrelvent at the mo, we just havnt been good enough.
Seamus Colemole
Previously deathbyropeandglass
Of course its relevent, the exact same players can be a totally different team if used in a different formation.
Sure, our problems go much deeper than the formations we use but when we are struggling it becomes even more important to play a formation that gets the best out of the players in it.
toffeestillidie
Player Valuation: £35m
we didn't get overrun in midfield, we absolutely dominated the centre circle area of the pitch, that is until the injuries set in. look at the possession stats, i don't know what site provides it but i gaurantee we had probably twice as much possession of them in that area of the pitch, since we kept a pretty high line and neville and heitinga are actually, contrary to popular belief, very good tacklers.
the problem was once we got the ball there we couldn't do anything with it except hoof it to the forwards or play it out wide. the 4-2-2-2 imo would work well against man utd to prevent us from conceding (the defensive errors that lead to the goals were the product of our defense shutting off, not the result of a bad formation) and to hold possession. its not good for attacking because there is no attack minded midfielder to create a triangle to play the wingers through (the only time this did work in the game is when osman cut inside and released baines)
i would argue that with 2 defensive midfielders, it is impossible to have a formation you would call a 4-4-2 unless its lopsided, because the lack of central attack-minded midfielder forces the strikers to track back.
i personally still think the 451 suits our personnel better at the moment (accomodating osman cahill fellaini rodwell coleman drenthe donovan barkley gueye), but that doesn't mean last nights performance is evidence that a true 4-4-2 (back four, felli at cdm, coleman drenthe out wide, osman attacking mid, and any two of straq, anichebe, connor macaleny, maybe even faddy up top) couldn't work.
the problem was once we got the ball there we couldn't do anything with it except hoof it to the forwards or play it out wide. the 4-2-2-2 imo would work well against man utd to prevent us from conceding (the defensive errors that lead to the goals were the product of our defense shutting off, not the result of a bad formation) and to hold possession. its not good for attacking because there is no attack minded midfielder to create a triangle to play the wingers through (the only time this did work in the game is when osman cut inside and released baines)
i would argue that with 2 defensive midfielders, it is impossible to have a formation you would call a 4-4-2 unless its lopsided, because the lack of central attack-minded midfielder forces the strikers to track back.
i personally still think the 451 suits our personnel better at the moment (accomodating osman cahill fellaini rodwell coleman drenthe donovan barkley gueye), but that doesn't mean last nights performance is evidence that a true 4-4-2 (back four, felli at cdm, coleman drenthe out wide, osman attacking mid, and any two of straq, anichebe, connor macaleny, maybe even faddy up top) couldn't work.
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