Lewis Gibson

[blueblue]

The Lewis Gibson situation is strange. I don't believe he should be in the team ahead of Keane or Mina but I don't understand why he isn't in the match day squad now and then with a view to giving him some minutes on the pitch.

I look also at the treatment of Tom Davies who I feel is not being treated fairly , Mason Holgate might be no worse than what we are already seeing in defence and Anthony Gordon possibly could get a seat on the bench for the Caribou cup or whatever it is now called.

 

[Lanolin]

I'm convinced that these Premier League academies are just tax scams. The only players that ever get anywhere are the ones that would have made it no matter what, while the rest are still struggling to control the ball mid-stride at 16/17.

City spend millions upon millions on theirs, and yet can't produce so much as a basic head the ball centre-back to fill in for six weeks.

It's just because of how good you have to be to get into a PL team these days. We're in the relegation zone and yet our back up right back is a current international for the world cup holders and we've got a striker with a 17 international goals who can't even get on the bench. With squads like that, the half decent young lads who would have got plenty of games 20 years ago just aren't going to break through. Specifically on Gibson though, he only turned 19 in the summer, there's not many top level teams who would have given him games at centre half at this stage.

 

[blueloon]

Ive spoken in the past about creating a pathway to the first team.

Its currently very difficult when we have wage thieves like Niasse and others hanging around taking up space.

Im sure Brands plan for the future involves less rubbish and vastly more yoots, but sadly this transfer ban will set us back a few years.

Interestingly the Transfer ban has had the effect of our current u18 team being the youngest for many years, all our own products and nobody brought in as Lewis Gibson was, hard to say yet of course how/if many will make it. And it appears that Brands has already started the “the future involves less rubbish” bit as we’ve let quite a number of U23s players who were not going to make it go , but he hasn’t bought in players to replace them as U23s are not included in the ban.
In the context of Gibson, it’s hard to understand why he hasn’t been tied down yet, if he was three years older and still not showing signs of pushing for a first team place it would fit the “less rubbish “ scenario , but at 19 he’s still young for a CB. Latest news is that Gerrard wants him at Rangers.

 

[Eggs]

You've just named two of the successful academy graduates right there.

How many "best youngsrters come straight into the first team set-up" can you point to? Rooney aside, I'd argue every one should have been sent on loan as part of their development - Tom Davies in particular.

I'll always maintain League One is better for any Everton youngster than the U23 League. The reformatting of the reserve league killed that level - only the other day we had Unsworth talking about how Ellis Simms needs to now learn "real football".

Take Liverpool. They've had Harry Wilson loaned out to Crewe, Hull, Derby, Bournemouth. He has been learning "real football" - we'd have kept him winning trophies with David Unsworth.



Or.....

The club don't get into that contract situation in the first place and agree a deal/pathway for his development.

Languishing around in Everton's U23s is no good for him - he'd be right to move.



Lazy allegation that.

He left Newcastle for Everton for the right reasons, like he'll leave Everton for the right reasons. His career/to play football.

...not sure if you’ve followed Gibson’s development, he only turned 19 in the summer. I’ve watched a fair bit of him and he’s progressed. I really wouldn’t agree he’s been languishing in the U23s. I was of a view if he stepped up it would be as a LB, but he’s really developed physically in the past 18 months. He’s got attitude and ability.

I really don’t know, but i’d be amazed if his ‘pathway’ hadn’t been discussed with the player and his representatives. That includes the step-up to the first team squad this season. I’d also be amazed if the club haven’t been trying to tie him down to a new contract for a while.

I’m not being ‘lazy’ when I say he’ll be fully aware of the financial opportunity open to him. Running down his contract provides a huge financial bonus. It’s the way it is these days, Everton will benefit from such circumstances and lose from such circumstances. Unfortunately, it appears we won’t realise much of a return on this costly investment.

Totally disagree with you on sending players on loan, but it’s all about opinion.

 

[Frang]

...not sure if you’ve followed Gibson’s development, he only turned 19 in the summer. I’ve watched a fair bit of him and he’s progressed. I really wouldn’t agree he’s been languishing in the U23s. I was of a view if he stepped up it would be as a LB, but he’s really developed physically in the past 18 months. He’s got attitude and ability.

I really don’t know, but i’d be amazed if his ‘pathway’ hadn’t been discussed with the player and his representatives. That includes the step-up to the first team squad this season. I’d also be amazed if the club haven’t been trying to tie him down to a new contract for a while.

I’m not being ‘lazy’ when I say he’ll be fully aware of the financial opportunity open to him. Running down his contract provides a huge financial bonus. It’s the way it is these days, Everton will benefit from such circumstances and lose from such circumstances. Unfortunately, it appears we won’t realise much of a return on this costly investment.

Totally disagree with you on sending players on loan, but it’s all about opinion.

what about morgan feeney… I though he was the best out the bunch ?

 

[Lanolin]

You've just named two of the successful academy graduates right there.

How many "best youngsrters come straight into the first team set-up" can you point to? Rooney aside, I'd argue every one should have been sent on loan as part of their development - Tom Davies in particular.

I'll always maintain League One is better for any Everton youngster than the U23 League. The reformatting of the reserve league killed that level - only the other day we had Unsworth talking about how Ellis Simms needs to now learn "real football".

Take Liverpool. They've had Harry Wilson loaned out to Crewe, Hull, Derby, Bournemouth. He has been learning "real football" - we'd have kept him winning trophies with David Unsworth.



Or.....

The club don't get into that contract situation in the first place and agree a deal/pathway for his development.

Languishing around in Everton's U23s is no good for him - he'd be right to move.



Lazy allegation that.

He left Newcastle for Everton for the right reasons, like he'll leave Everton for the right reasons. His career/to play football.

Harry Wilson is 22 and has played 80 club games. Dowell is 21 and played 65, Kenny is 22 and played 73, Callum Connolly is 22 and played 100. So what have they done that we haven't?

The idea that we're somehow doing something massively different to other teams is just provably wrong. The idea that we keep our best players to win the under 23s league is the same. Why haven't the above been playing then, or Williams or Robinson? Are we claiming that Unsworth wouldn't have wanted all of them playing for him over the last couple of years? He wouldn't want Broadhead, Bowler, Virginia, Hornby available now? It just doesn't make any sense, it's making the facts fit the story.

 

[Goat]

Interestingly the Transfer ban has had the effect of our current u18 team being the youngest for many years, all our own products and nobody brought in as Lewis Gibson was, hard to say yet of course how/if many will make it. And it appears that Brands has already started the “the future involves less rubbish” bit as we’ve let quite a number of U23s players who were not going to make it go , but he hasn’t bought in players to replace them as U23s are not included in the ban.
In the context of Gibson, it’s hard to understand why he hasn’t been tied down yet, if he was three years older and still not showing signs of pushing for a first team place it would fit the “less rubbish “ scenario , but at 19 he’s still young for a CB. Latest news is that Gerrard wants him at Rangers.

Gibson probably thinks hes got as much chance at Newcastle as he has here, for whatever reason, but sadly for us Newcastle is more his home.

I wasnt saying Gibson is rubbish, I meant the likes of Niasse, Walcott, Snides, that sort of rubbish.

 

[Eggs]

what about morgan feeney… I though he was the best out the bunch ?

...well he is one that we can say is languishing in the U23s. Like many players, he looked like he might come through but hasn’t made that final step. I presume he’ll be released.

I think only Arsenal have played more teenagers than Everton in the PL era.

 

[Billysgingham.]

what about morgan feeney… I though he was the best out the bunch ?

Never going to make a prem player.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

...not sure if you’ve followed Gibson’s development, he only turned 19 in the summer. I’ve watched a fair bit of him and he’s progressed. I really wouldn’t agree he’s been languishing in the U23s. I was of a view if he stepped up it would be as a LB, but he’s really developed physically in the past 18 months. He’s got attitude and ability.

I really don’t know, but i’d be amazed if his ‘pathway’ hadn’t been discussed with the player and his representatives. That includes the step-up to the first team squad this season. I’d also be amazed if the club haven’t been trying to tie him down to a new contract for a while.

I’m not being ‘lazy’ when I say he’ll be fully aware of the financial opportunity open to him. Running down his contract provides a huge financial bonus. It’s the way it is these days, Everton will benefit from such circumstances and lose from such circumstances. Unfortunately, it appears we won’t realise much of a return on this costly investment.

Totally disagree with you on sending players on loan, but it’s all about opinion.

Note the date of when I started this thread. July 2018. Over a year ago...

I included quotes from then from David Unsworth who called him outstanding, and our last captain to win a trophy. Over a year ago...

Over a year ago, he'd already captained the U23s.

Here we are, and he's not had a sniff of being in the senior Everton squad.

If you don't agree that is 'languishing in the U23s', then that's where our opinions fundamentally differ.

It's grossly unfair on the lad to say any decision to move from Everton will be financial - his history to date suggests any move he'll make will be for his career. He turned down bigger clubs than us to sign initially, citing potential senior football pathway.

He'll be moving because we've failed to give him an opportunity he'll get elsewhere.

 

[Carlito]

It's just because of how good you have to be to get into a PL team these days. We're in the relegation zone and yet our back up right back is a current international for the world cup holders and we've got a striker with a 17 international goals who can't even get on the bench. With squads like that, the half decent young lads who would have got plenty of games 20 years ago just aren't going to break through. Specifically on Gibson though, he only turned 19 in the summer, there's not many top level teams who would have given him games at centre half at this stage.

To me, it's a waste of a kid's time and a clubs' resources to stockpile every half-decent athlete they can find in order to win meaningless youth trophies.

I'm not talking about Gibson in particular, who I know nothing about, but rather the natural left-backs that can't get a game ahead of Martina, the midfielders that don't get a look-in ahead of defenders like Neville and Heitinga, the wingers that are overlooked in favour of Anichebe and the strikers that never get out of the reserves while Cahill and Fellaini are labouring up front. There's something amiss.

I agree that it isn't just Everton, though. It took setting up a global people trafficking racket for Chelsea to produce a decent crop.

 

[Eggs]

Note the date of when I started this thread. July 2018. Over a year ago...

I included quotes from then from David Unsworth who called him outstanding, and our last captain to win a trophy. Over a year ago...

Over a year ago, he'd already captained the U23s.

Here we are, and he's not had a sniff of being in the senior Everton squad.

If you don't agree that is 'languishing in the U23s', then that's where our opinions fundamentally differ.

It's grossly unfair on the lad to say any decision to move from Everton will be financial - his history to date suggests any move he'll make will be for his career. He turned down bigger clubs than us to sign initially, citing potential senior football pathway.

He'll be moving because we've failed to give him an opportunity he'll get elsewhere.

....and you will see from the youth team thread that I initially highlighted Gibson’s contract situation a long time ago. I’ve also been highlighting it on the ‘conference’ and other threads in the hope somebody would ask the question of Silva or Brands. I’ve been like a broken record about this lad for a long time, I rated him so highly.

I actually think the club have done alright by him. He’d just turned 18 at the start of last season, i’m not sure which clubs will have wanted him on loan at that stage, but points are precious in the lower leagues and I genuinely think an 18 year old CB would’ve struggled for game time. I think that’s the reality. He’s stepped up to the first team squad this pre-season, he now trains full time with the squad.

Not sure what more the club could’ve done. It’s naive to think any player in his situation is not thinking of the financial benefits of a Bosman. A move to Newcastle is mooted, it’s unlikely he’ll be a regular. Wherever he goes he’ll have to work his way into the team.

I absolutely agree there’s a debate to be had about the worth of U23 football.

 

[zzr45]

Harry Wilson is 22 and has played 80 club games. Dowell is 21 and played 65, Kenny is 22 and played 73, Callum Connolly is 22 and played 100. So what have they done that we haven't?

The idea that we're somehow doing something massively different to other teams is just provably wrong. The idea that we keep our best players to win the under 23s league is the same. Why haven't the above been playing then, or Williams or Robinson? Are we claiming that Unsworth wouldn't have wanted all of them playing for him over the last couple of years? He wouldn't want Broadhead, Bowler, Virginia, Hornby available now? It just doesn't make any sense, it's making the facts fit the story.

They have actually had a plan in mind - Wilson has taken progressive steps up. Connolly has gone from Championship down to League One.

As was in the youth thread - we’re keeping lads way past the point where they are either going to make it or not to develop a ‘winning’ culture to the point we are actually limiting our youths ability to improve.

Arguably out of the list of players currently out on loan only Virginia might have a future. The rest have been loaned out to go in the shop window.

 

[Zatara]

I m happy to read different views, so can you name any young player that we have developed that Silva has given a first Premier League start or bench position to?

Richarlison, DCL.

We didn’t develop Richarlison and I’m meaning players from our youth set up who have made their PL debut under Silva, you could include Keane if you use your criteria. There aren’t any as far as I’m aware, but I’m happy for you to prove me wrong and name them.

Kean doesnt start regularly thats what I never mentioned him.

I firmly believe that our entire youth system is not able to produce Premier League players.

There arent any premier league players, but im happy for you to prove me wrong and name them.


Cos they are all utter pony.

That's very harsh criteria though. The vast majority of good youth players (Kenny, Dowell, Holgate, DCL, Davies, even Baningime and Feeney) had already been given debuts before he got here. That's not really his fault. I think the only young player anyone thinks is realistically anywhere near getting a debut is Gordon, who was 17 and not even a regular in the Under 23s for most of Silva's time here.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree. Feel we can't properly judge unless they are given a wee go. Silva just isn't willing.

My take on this is (in my mind lol) fairly logical:

A: As @Lanolin states, a good number of young players have already been handed their debuts. He mentioned;

Kenny
Dowell
Holgate
DCL
Davies
Baningime
Feeney

I think most on here would agree that not one of those above mentioned players have been consistently 'outstanding'. I would suggest that only Kenny, DCL, Holgate and Davies have had somewhat consistent games in a row of 6/10 ratings.

With that in mind, not one of the 4 players mentioned should really be seen as a permanent first choice player in a team aspiring for top 6...YET.

Then, without as much knowledge as many posters here on the youth teams...the only ones really mentioned are;

Gordon: Silva has said he's close to game time.

Simms: Only just stepped up to u23s.

Gibson: Silva has said he's not ready yet.

Virginia: Having a nightmare on loan

Markangelo: A few recent rumblings from him

Astley seemed to be another highly regarded player but it appears he's not set the u23s alight this season.


Then i think if we look at the profile of signings (mostly u25) and highlight a couple in Kean / Richarlison (u21) then it shows that theres not much Silva can do in terms of bringing through players when the quality doesnt seem to be there.

....other than Barkley and Osman, I can’t think of any Academy players who went on to play 50 games for us after a loan. History shows it doesn’t work for us, indeed our best youngsters come straight into the first team set-up.

Regardless, I don’t believe this has anything to do with Gibson’s position. He has progressed through the ranks, was given captaincy of U23s at a young age and promoted to the first team ranks this season. His contract is up this summer, so sending him on loan would have effectively been saying goodbye to him.

The indication (to me) is that he wants to cash in on his status. I don’t blame him for that, he’ll pocket a very sizeable figure if he moves in the summer.

As anybody who reads the youth thread knows, i’ve been highlighting this lad for a long time. I’ve also been posting concerns about his contract situation. It’s looking increasingly like he’s rejecting any offers from the club and for that reason alone I wouldn’t be in a rush to give him game time.

You've just named two of the successful academy graduates right there.

How many "best youngsrters come straight into the first team set-up" can you point to? Rooney aside, I'd argue every one should have been sent on loan as part of their development - Tom Davies in particular.

I'll always maintain League One is better for any Everton youngster than the U23 League. The reformatting of the reserve league killed that level - only the other day we had Unsworth talking about how Ellis Simms needs to now learn "real football".

Take Liverpool. They've had Harry Wilson loaned out to Crewe, Hull, Derby, Bournemouth. He has been learning "real football" - we'd have kept him winning trophies with David Unsworth.



Or.....

The club don't get into that contract situation in the first place and agree a deal/pathway for his development.

Languishing around in Everton's U23s is no good for him - he'd be right to move.



Lazy allegation that.

He left Newcastle for Everton for the right reasons, like he'll leave Everton for the right reasons. His career/to play football.

Just on Gibson especially, if hes not considered good enough for the 1st team yet and hasnt extended his contract then sending him on loan would effectively say adios to him.

Either the club havent offered him anything reasonable (surprising) or he wants to leave.

This particular case is a tricky one imo.

Wrote it without fully explaining myself. I dont see any youngsters from our u23's closer to the first team now than they were under Koeman. The majority have stagnated or regressed. The pathway to our first team is being blocked by journeymen. Even the likes of Davies, has gone backwards unable to kick a ball in anger, while we have a midfield injury crisis. Kept out by a player with no future at the club. The likes of Walcott and tosun have had more minutes than any youth.

Ive spoken in the past about creating a pathway to the first team.

Its currently very difficult when we have wage thieves like Niasse and others hanging around taking up space.

Im sure Brands plan for the future involves less rubbish and vastly more yoots, but sadly this transfer ban will set us back a few years.

My thoughts are that if players like Niasse / Cuco are still around then it needs to be made clear to them that they wont be an option for selection and made to train together away from the squad.

We really need to unblock any route to the first team but as to signing new u18 players, although exciting i think its more important at this time to instead be solely focused on getting rid / separating the deadwood + signing players between 18-21 who can really push us forward once they adapt to the league.

 

[Zatara]

The Lewis Gibson situation is strange. I don't believe he should be in the team ahead of Keane or Mina but I don't understand why he isn't in the match day squad now and then with a view to giving him some minutes on the pitch.

I look also at the treatment of Tom Davies who I feel is not being treated fairly , Mason Holgate might be no worse than what we are already seeing in defence and Anthony Gordon possibly could get a seat on the bench for the Caribou cup or whatever it is now called.

It's just because of how good you have to be to get into a PL team these days. We're in the relegation zone and yet our back up right back is a current international for the world cup holders and we've got a striker with a 17 international goals who can't even get on the bench. With squads like that, the half decent young lads who would have got plenty of games 20 years ago just aren't going to break through. Specifically on Gibson though, he only turned 19 in the summer, there's not many top level teams who would have given him games at centre half at this stage.

Interestingly the Transfer ban has had the effect of our current u18 team being the youngest for many years, all our own products and nobody brought in as Lewis Gibson was, hard to say yet of course how/if many will make it. And it appears that Brands has already started the “the future involves less rubbish” bit as we’ve let quite a number of U23s players who were not going to make it go , but he hasn’t bought in players to replace them as U23s are not included in the ban.
In the context of Gibson, it’s hard to understand why he hasn’t been tied down yet, if he was three years older and still not showing signs of pushing for a first team place it would fit the “less rubbish “ scenario , but at 19 he’s still young for a CB. Latest news is that Gerrard wants him at Rangers.

...not sure if you’ve followed Gibson’s development, he only turned 19 in the summer. I’ve watched a fair bit of him and he’s progressed. I really wouldn’t agree he’s been languishing in the U23s. I was of a view if he stepped up it would be as a LB, but he’s really developed physically in the past 18 months. He’s got attitude and ability.

I really don’t know, but i’d be amazed if his ‘pathway’ hadn’t been discussed with the player and his representatives. That includes the step-up to the first team squad this season. I’d also be amazed if the club haven’t been trying to tie him down to a new contract for a while.

I’m not being ‘lazy’ when I say he’ll be fully aware of the financial opportunity open to him. Running down his contract provides a huge financial bonus. It’s the way it is these days, Everton will benefit from such circumstances and lose from such circumstances. Unfortunately, it appears we won’t realise much of a return on this costly investment.

Totally disagree with you on sending players on loan, but it’s all about opinion.

Gibson probably thinks hes got as much chance at Newcastle as he has here, for whatever reason, but sadly for us Newcastle is more his home.

I wasnt saying Gibson is rubbish, I meant the likes of Niasse, Walcott, Snides, that sort of rubbish.

Note the date of when I started this thread. July 2018. Over a year ago...

I included quotes from then from David Unsworth who called him outstanding, and our last captain to win a trophy. Over a year ago...

Over a year ago, he'd already captained the U23s.

Here we are, and he's not had a sniff of being in the senior Everton squad.

If you don't agree that is 'languishing in the U23s', then that's where our opinions fundamentally differ.

It's grossly unfair on the lad to say any decision to move from Everton will be financial - his history to date suggests any move he'll make will be for his career. He turned down bigger clubs than us to sign initially, citing potential senior football pathway.

He'll be moving because we've failed to give him an opportunity he'll get elsewhere.

....and you will see from the youth team thread that I initially highlighted Gibson’s contract situation a long time ago. I’ve also been highlighting it on the ‘conference’ and other threads in the hope somebody would ask the question of Silva or Brands. I’ve been like a broken record about this lad for a long time, I rated him so highly.

I actually think the club have done alright by him. He’d just turned 18 at the start of last season, i’m not sure which clubs will have wanted him on loan at that stage, but points are precious in the lower leagues and I genuinely think an 18 year old CB would’ve struggled for game time. I think that’s the reality. He’s stepped up to the first team squad this pre-season, he now trains full time with the squad.

Not sure what more the club could’ve done. It’s naive to think any player in his situation is not thinking of the financial benefits of a Bosman. A move to Newcastle is mooted, it’s unlikely he’ll be a regular. Wherever he goes he’ll have to work his way into the team.

I absolutely agree there’s a debate to be had about the worth of U23 football.

Theres three 'problems' i can see with the Gibson situation:

1: Does he feel that his pathway is being blocked and seeing his old team mates getting games has pushed him into demanding minutes this season but Silva doeent feel he is quite ready? Perhaps hes waiting to be given a chance before he signs...

If thats the case then you have to admire his confidence.


2: Is he looking for a pay day? If so and if we rate him then we have the option of offering a deal like Garbutt o) or trying to persuade him he will get game time and then be put on a first team deal.


3: He may have been tapped up. Lets say he moved to another prem side, the only one where i think he would go is Newcastle (who let him down with beardsley). If he went to Rangers then he may well stand out in that league and earn a move to...us? Kind of seems pointless.


The solution i think is either to get him on the bench (but Silva says hes not ready) or to give him a big contract (but hes unoroven).

Not easy.

They have actually had a plan in mind - Wilson has taken progressive steps up. Connolly has gone from Championship down to League One.

As was in the youth thread - we’re keeping lads way past the point where they are either going to make it or not to develop a ‘winning’ culture to the point we are actually limiting our youths ability to improve.

Arguably out of the list of players currently out on loan only Virginia might have a future. The rest have been loaned out to go in the shop window.

Players like Connolly and Dowell, in hindsight should have been sold a couple of seasons ago.

Those like Virginia / Kenny are going to be off on loan for a season and then decisions made in summer.

I think @Eggs is correct that if the manager wants to keep players long term and rates them then he will keep them. However the Kenny situation seems like we want to give him 12months to progress...lets not forget Kane / Beckham have been loaned before.

The key for us is to get rid of a number of players in the first team and also u23s (and below) and open up the route to the top. It seems like weve got too many players in the u23s and first team still.

I think we still need 2 seasons before were in a position to really see a streamlined setup.