Messi "best player of all time"

[Dannymini]

that's why they're not in the all-time top 5.

So what were saying if you won the world cup that makes you a better player, don't buy into that like, Messi lost in extra time don't think that makes him a worse player than if he won it

 

[MikeH72]

The fact he’s been the best striker, winger, number 10 and midfielder on the planet all at the same time for 10 years says to me he’s the GOAT.

 

[McBain]

Surely anyone who has played with Messi will say he's the best they have played with, and cryuff + best never won much internationally

When you have xavi, iniesta, ibra, abidal, henry, puyol, busquets, suarez, pique, villa, eto’o, neymar... I mean look at the players he’s had running around with him. We’ve never seen players like this one team for such a sustained period of time. Well except Madrid but no-one would talk about him the way they do Maradona.

 

[dholliday]

So what were saying if you won the world cup that makes you a better player, don't buy into that like, Messi lost in extra time don't think that makes him a worse player than if he won it

Not necessarily won, but if you demonstrate a dominant influential presence in international competition as well as club competition then it counts for a lot in the rankings.

Messi hasn't really demonstrated this. Even he was embarrassed he won FIFA's Golden Ball in 2014.

 

[Dannymini]

When you have xavi, iniesta, ibra, abidal, henry, puyol, busquets, suarez, pique, villa, eto’o, neymar... I mean look at the players he’s had running around with him. We’ve never seen players like this one team for such a sustained period of time. Well except Madrid but no-one would talk about him the way they do Maradona.

And to stand head and shoulders above them tells me how good he is.

 

[Dannymini]

Not necessarily won, but if you demonstrate a dominant influential presence in international competition as well as club competition then it counts for a lot in the rankings.

Messi hasn't really demonstrated this. Even he was embarrassed he won FIFA's Golden Ball in 2014.

Wouldn't say maradona dominated European cup competition

 

[dholliday]

Wouldn't say maradona dominated European cup competition

It was a proper Champions cup competition back then. Only those 1st in the league got in, and it was straight knock-out from the off. His Napoli did lose to Real Madrid in an early European Cup round. You could have that against him if you like.

If you're an already-dominant club nowadays like Barca or Real, it's easier to win the thing as you not just effectively qualify every year but you also have group games which you can afford to lose now & then.

 

[Dannymini]

It was a proper Champions cup competition back then. Only those 1st in the league got in, and it was straight knock-out from the off. His Napoli did lose to Real Madrid in an early European Cup round. You could have that against him if you like.

If you're an already-dominant club nowadays like Barca or Real, it's easier to win the thing as you not just effectively qualify every year but you also have group games which you can afford to lose now & then.

You could argue the Germany team that beat Argentina were dominant, they spanked the hosts 7-1

 

[dholliday]

You could argue the Germany team that beat Argentina were dominant, they spanked the hosts 7-1

They were. Germany won the thing, of course. That's why Lahm, Schweinsteiger & Neuer from that team would arguably get on a top 20 all-time list.

 

[Dannymini]

They were. Germany won the thing, of course. That's why Lahm, Schweinsteiger & Neuer from that team would arguably get on a top 20 all-time list.

Don't forget mertesacker

 

[dholliday]

Don't forget mertesacker

let's not go overboard, ay lol

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

No. The difference, and probably what sways my thinking is that every single player who played with or against him says that he was the best player they’ve ever played with or against. Messi is a great, no doubt, but propped up by the best players in the best team. Look at the players he’s played with, and why he cant do it internationally, when the very best can.

Messi: > 1 in 2 internationally
Maradona ~ 1 in 3

I'd hardly say he "can't do it Internationally". Made a WC final that they lost in extra time. Maradona won 1 WC.

So are we really saying the entire argument comes down to one match? One match Maradona arguably wouldn't even have been in if he wasn't a cheat?

 

[McBain]

Messi: > 1 in 2 internationally
Maradona ~ 1 in 3

I'd hardly say he "can't do it Internationally". Made a WC final that they lost in extra time. Maradona won 1 WC.

So are we really saying the entire argument comes down to one match? One match Maradona arguably wouldn't even have been in if he wasn't a cheat?

Football isn’t just about statistics mate. Maradona was a massive cheat but if your using goals as the metric for greatness you’re completely discounting the other 9 players on the pitch.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Football isn’t just about statistics mate. Maradona was a massive cheat but if your using goals as the metric for greatness you’re completely discounting the other 9 players on the pitch.

Yes, and if you're using the fact that he won a World Cup while Messi hasn't, you're putting way too much on 1 match.

Also, using the "he had better players around him" argument, you're basically saying no modern player can ever match Maradona, since in today's game you'll NEVER have a player of his or Messi's quality playing for the likes of Napoli for anything more than a season or so when they first break through.

 

[McBain]

Yes, and if you're using the fact that he won a World Cup while Messi hasn't, you're putting way too much on 1 match.

Also, using the "he had better players around him" argument, you're basically saying no modern player can ever match Maradona, since in today's game you'll NEVER have a player of his or Messi's quality playing for the likes of Napoli for anything more than a season or so when they first break through.

Well, again, you’re trying to frame a specific argument when it can’t be quantified by a single game, or a general statement. Theres lots of factors at play and Im just reflecting on different thoughts. You think Messi is the greatest of all time and im merely pointing out that doing it at the best club in the one league isnt a test of his quality where as all the other candidates have done it wherever they’ve been.

Im sure if messi had actually tested himself with his career then there’d be no argument, but there will always be a cloud over his talent when he has failed internationally - the only actual other team he’s ever played for.