The Unholy Trinity

[Charro]

The midfield functions a whole lot better with Tom Davies in there.

You all know it as well.

 

[Zatara]

The obvious answer to your, let the manager manage, given we also need results, wins, points.
Or is aiming to hit, eventually, Silva's Nirvana system ( like Roberto's philosophy, which was in effect...if it didn't work, keep adding more philosophy ad infinitum until it does...which it will because the philosophy is ALWAYS right) the be all and end all.
*Answers own question; No.
Points make prizes, said Brucie and he was right
Wins, points, performances;
Puts bums on seats
Everton on sky
Brass in pocket
Trophies in cabinets
Stadiums on Docks

Do the 'adapt bit' with the players you have, gradually doing away with the adapting as you get in the players you need...
If you can get them
If they do the biz

The aim is not to hit the most perfect version of your own personal fave system ever.
The aim should be to each week...on the day, put out the best performance you can

Mr. Silva, for various reasons, that didn't happen...don't let your stubbornness be one of those reasons.
Edit; If you cant do it mate well fair enough the results will see you off as time goes by, but ffs, give it a go

If were languishing around 10th or below in December i imagine that he 'may' adapt his 'philosophy' but id expect him to bring in new players at the earliest opportunity and revert to type. Whether thats stubborness or doing what he believes is beneficial in the mid-long term for short term sacrifice is up for debate.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you're not deliberately missing my point to be a bell.

Klaaseen was signed to be a starter (23 million). It didn't work out. He's gone.
Mina was signed to be a starter (27 million). Hopefully it works out. We'll see.

No one knows for sure though. I find your assumption that he's defo going to be boss and your re-arranging of our squad around him to be arrogant.
It's all good though, Zat gonna Zat and that's fine, it's when you start quoting at me in your twaddle that it becomes my business.

As for yesterday our midfield was definitely NOT outplayed by Noble and Rice. We had more possession, more touches of the ball and created more chances than West Ham.We lost the game as our defending and finishing was poor. You'd be able to see this if you thought about the game objectively rather than using the result as part of your agenda to carve up our squad in your head like you're playing a computer game.

1-- So you're calling me a 'bell'. Well done.

2-- Klaassen was NOT signed by this management team. At no point have i stated that Mina WILL be a starter but i have said that he will be pencilled in as a starter...otherwise he wouldnt have been signed.

3-- At no point have i 'assumed Mina will be boss'. Can you quote me saying that?

4-- Cool more insults...

5-- If you felt that the game is about posession stats as opposed to effectiveness then thats a viewpoint which i differ from.

6-- Agendas and insults about computer games...

Dearie me. Not sure what you're hoping to achieve with posts like this on a football discussion forum.

Playing two defensive midfielders at home is just pure coward. Moyes did it. Martinez did it. Koeman did it. Now Silva does it.

I think Gomes will change that. At the moment we dont have other options.

Are you implying Neves goes deep and picks up the ball off the Wolves defence?

He did at Porto and ive seen him and Moutinho do it for Wolves, so yes. He's playing an interesting role this season popping up everywhere and im looking forward to see more of him.

I actually think that we might need just one player to transform that team now too- and that player might even be at the club already with the likes of Richarlison and Bernard waiting to come in.

I see from a later post that you mention a few players like Neves and Doucoure as well. They'd certainly raise the standard a lot. Getting them in would be hellishly expensive though.

What I think we probably need is an Andy Gray or Peter Reid character. Streetwise, experience, a winner, some steel and quite a bit of skill underlying all that. I'd be thinking of looking at some more 'unglamorous' players, who can get the job done. N'Zogbia would have been the most high profile ones mentioned in the recent past. Doucoure could well grown into that type of player. Not that they're not glamorous of course!

Totally agree about the qualities needed. Lack a true leader in midfield and a warrior...Digne, Bernard and Richarlison seem to have it, i hope this is a character trait which Brands is searching for in all new signings.

Btw i think you meant N'Zonzi. I think we will be looking for someone as a deep ball player but...as with everything, expect the unexpected.

 

[Zatara]

The obvious answer to your, let the manager manage, given we also need results, wins, points.
Or is aiming to hit, eventually, Silva's Nirvana system ( like Roberto's philosophy, which was in effect...if it didn't work, keep adding more philosophy ad infinitum until it does...which it will because the philosophy is ALWAYS right) the be all and end all.
*Answers own question; No.
Points make prizes, said Brucie and he was right
Wins, points, performances;
Puts bums on seats
Everton on sky
Brass in pocket
Trophies in cabinets
Stadiums on Docks

Do the 'adapt bit' with the players you have, gradually doing away with the adapting as you get in the players you need...
If you can get them
If they do the biz

The aim is not to hit the most perfect version of your own personal fave system ever.
The aim should be to each week...on the day, put out the best performance you can

Mr. Silva, for various reasons, that didn't happen...don't let your stubbornness be one of those reasons.
Edit; If you cant do it mate well fair enough the results will see you off as time goes by, but ffs, give it a go

If were languishing around 10th or below in December i imagine that he 'may' adapt his 'philosophy' but id expect him to bring in new players at the earliest opportunity and revert to type. Whether thats stubborness or doing what he believes is beneficial in the mid-long term for short term sacrifice is up for debate.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you're not deliberately missing my point to be a bell.

Klaaseen was signed to be a starter (23 million). It didn't work out. He's gone.
Mina was signed to be a starter (27 million). Hopefully it works out. We'll see.

No one knows for sure though. I find your assumption that he's defo going to be boss and your re-arranging of our squad around him to be arrogant.
It's all good though, Zat gonna Zat and that's fine, it's when you start quoting at me in your twaddle that it becomes my business.

As for yesterday our midfield was definitely NOT outplayed by Noble and Rice. We had more possession, more touches of the ball and created more chances than West Ham.We lost the game as our defending and finishing was poor. You'd be able to see this if you thought about the game objectively rather than using the result as part of your agenda to carve up our squad in your head like you're playing a computer game.

1-- So you're calling me a 'bell'. Well done.

2-- Klaassen was NOT signed by this management team. At no point have i stated that Mina WILL be a starter but i have said that he will be pencilled in as a starter...otherwise he wouldnt have been signed.

3-- At no point have i 'assumed Mina will be boss'. Can you quote me saying that?

4-- Cool more insults...

5-- If you felt that the game is about posession stats as opposed to effectiveness then thats a viewpoint which i differ from.

6-- Agendas and insults about computer games...

Dearie me. Not sure what you're hoping to achieve with posts like this on a football discussion forum.

Playing two defensive midfielders at home is just pure coward. Moyes did it. Martinez did it. Koeman did it. Now Silva does it.

I think Gomes will change that. At the moment we dont have other options.

Are you implying Neves goes deep and picks up the ball off the Wolves defence?

He did at Porto and ive seen him and Moutinho do it for Wolves, so yes. He's playing an interesting role this season popping up everywhere and im looking forward to see more of him.

I actually think that we might need just one player to transform that team now too- and that player might even be at the club already with the likes of Richarlison and Bernard waiting to come in.

I see from a later post that you mention a few players like Neves and Doucoure as well. They'd certainly raise the standard a lot. Getting them in would be hellishly expensive though.

What I think we probably need is an Andy Gray or Peter Reid character. Streetwise, experience, a winner, some steel and quite a bit of skill underlying all that. I'd be thinking of looking at some more 'unglamorous' players, who can get the job done. N'Zogbia would have been the most high profile ones mentioned in the recent past. Doucoure could well grown into that type of player. Not that they're not glamorous of course!

Totally agree about the qualities needed. Lack a true leader in midfield and a warrior...Digne, Bernard and Richarlison seem to have it, i hope this is a character trait which Brands is searching for in all new signings.

Btw i think you meant N'Zonzi. I think we will be looking for someone as a deep ball player but...as with everything, expect the unexpected.

 

[Charro]

Word is Gomes is [Poor language removed] and won't be seen for a while.

 

[Shipped]

1-- So you're calling me a 'bell'. Well done.

2-- Klaassen was NOT signed by this management team. At no point have i stated that Mina WILL be a starter but i have said that he will be pencilled in as a starter...otherwise he wouldnt have been signed.

3-- At no point have i 'assumed Mina will be boss'. Can you quote me saying that?

4-- Cool more insults...

5-- If you felt that the game is about posession stats as opposed to effectiveness then thats a viewpoint which i differ from.

6-- Agendas and insults about computer games...

Dearie me. Not sure what you're hoping to achieve with posts like this on a football discussion forum.

1. No I didn't.
Can't be bothered with any of the rest.

I don't want to have to put you on ignore as occasionally you make some good points, and even when you're chatting wham it's frequently entertaining.
Lets just agree to disagree on this one and please leave me out of your quote festivals.

 

[Blue Roo]

The obvious answer to your, let the manager manage, given we also need results, wins, points.
Or is aiming to hit, eventually, Silva's Nirvana system ( like Roberto's philosophy, which was in effect...if it didn't work, keep adding more philosophy ad infinitum until it does...which it will because the philosophy is ALWAYS right) the be all and end all.
*Answers own question; No.
Points make prizes, said Brucie and he was right
Wins, points, performances;
Puts bums on seats
Everton on sky
Brass in pocket
Trophies in cabinets
Stadiums on Docks

Do the 'adapt bit' with the players you have, gradually doing away with the adapting as you get in the players you need...
If you can get them
If they do the biz

The aim is not to hit the most perfect version of your own personal fave system ever.
The aim should be to each week...on the day, put out the best performance you can

Mr. Silva, for various reasons, that didn't happen...don't let your stubbornness be one of those reasons.
Edit; If you cant do it mate well fair enough the results will see you off as time goes by, but ffs, give it a go

Agree with your core assessment 100%
But wouldn't be dumping on Silva too much.
He was very poor yesterday, but wouldn't call it stubbornness, I think he completely lost it.
The question is why?

I believe the powers that be have made some really bad decisions, starting with Koeman.
What your accusing Silva of should really be directed at Moshiri, Kenwright and co.
I'm a big fan of Koeman's, being of dutch heritage. He was a hero of mine on the field.
He played for Cruyff and played with Guardiola and Laudrup. He has a very good understanding of a particular type of football.
Its what the owners want to transplant into Everton. The ambition was right, the timing was diabolical.
The Netherlands have been appalling in recent times, failing to qualify for the last two major championships.
But its there style that's been the hardest to take. And it gets down to one thing, you can't play total football (modern version of), you can't play 4-3-3 unless you have the players to execute it. Otherwise you end up with the dross Van Gaal served up at Man U.

But if you keep an eye on the Netherlands you'll see things will change pretty quickly now.
They've learnt to adapt more. There strongest players are 3-4 world class CB's, so they play with 3 at the back with two wing backs.
But now Koeman has the one player that can make the Dutch dance again - Frenkie De Jong.
He has the player to be able to do what he knows.
Koeman had knocked back offers from the KNVB before. He's been waiting, biding his time.
Holland will get relegated in the nations league against France and Germany but by the next Euros they'll be back near the top (if they find a striker)
with Koeman at the helm, maybe another WC final on the horizon.

Unless Moshiri is able to get the likes of Frenkie, Mathais De Light and a world class striker, which he won't, there's no use getting a coach who matches that.
They should have started with someone like Benetiz.
And bought the current Barry, Milner, bought the best striker, and the best two playmakers (8,10) you can.
Then build a side around them. Adapt to what you got and progress.
As it gets better, spend money on attracting the best. And we'll cement ourselves in the Top 7 where we belong.
Patient progress. Not the mess that currently exists.
Yesterday a good coach lost his patience on the sidelines, probably at his wits end.
Yesterday we had our best player sitting up in the stands thinking god knows what.
If you want your coach to adapt, then you'd expect the leaders above to be showing the way.
As it stands, it looks like we've got bedwetters up above leading this cub.
If your lucky you get a player like Richarlison come along every now and then, something you didn't expect.
We got him, but but we probably don't have a team there to keep him.
We may get lucky in the next couple of windows.
But if not, we need to make sure the next time around we've got things sorted.
Silva's got a massive task ahead of him.

 

[catcherintherye]

I think there is a double problem with them. Firstly they are only solid players who are the wrong age to get much better. The 2nd is they seem to bring the worst out in each other.

It's hard to have all of them. If you are individually brilliant, young enough to get better, or just fit a system you stand a chance.

I don't know how we resolve the issue. However Gana playing box to box doesn't work.

 

[degsy]

Agree with your core assessment 100%
But wouldn't be dumping on Silva too much.
He was very poor yesterday, but wouldn't call it stubbornness, I think he completely lost it.
The question is why?

I believe the powers that be have made some really bad decisions, starting with Koeman.
What your accusing Silva of should really be directed at Moshiri, Kenwright and co.
I'm a big fan of Koeman's, being of dutch heritage. He was a hero of mine on the field.
He played for Cruyff and played with Guardiola and Laudrup. He has a very good understanding of a particular type of football.
Its what the owners want to transplant into Everton. The ambition was right, the timing was diabolical.
The Netherlands have been appalling in recent times, failing to qualify for the last two major championships.
But its there style that's been the hardest to take. And it gets down to one thing, you can't play total football (modern version of), you can't play 4-3-3 unless you have the players to execute it. Otherwise you end up with the dross Van Gaal served up at Man U.

But if you keep an eye on the Netherlands you'll see things will change pretty quickly now.
They've learnt to adapt more. There strongest players are 3-4 world class CB's, so they play with 3 at the back with two wing backs.
But now Koeman has the one player that can make the Dutch dance again - Frenkie De Jong.
He has the player to be able to do what he knows.
Koeman had knocked back offers from the KNVB before. He's been waiting, biding his time.
Holland will get relegated in the nations league against France and Germany but by the next Euros they'll be back near the top (if they find a striker)
with Koeman at the helm, maybe another WC final on the horizon.

Unless Moshiri is able to get the likes of Frenkie, Mathais De Light and a world class striker, which he won't, there's no use getting a coach who matches that.
They should have started with someone like Benetiz.
And bought the current Barry, Milner, bought the best striker, and the best two playmakers (8,10) you can.
Then build a side around them. Adapt to what you got and progress.
As it gets better, spend money on attracting the best. And we'll cement ourselves in the Top 7 where we belong.
Patient progress. Not the mess that currently exists.
Yesterday a good coach lost his patience on the sidelines, probably at his wits end.
Yesterday we had our best player sitting up in the stands thinking god knows what.
If you want your coach to adapt, then you'd expect the leaders above to be showing the way.
As it stands, it looks like we've got bedwetters up above leading this cub.
If your lucky you get a player like Richarlison come along every now and then, something you didn't expect.
We got him, but but we probably don't have a team there to keep him.
We may get lucky in the next couple of windows.
But if not, we need to make sure the next time around we've got things sorted.
Silva's got a massive task ahead of him.

Everybody has to adapt, Pep did in his first season...he maybe 'adapting' this season to give him a better run at the CL
Its not for the 'Leaders' to show him the way, their job is to give him the tools he asks for so he can do his job
Silva's job is to win games
And if he can't do that its to draw them while learning why he only drew
Time is on his side for now
Unless it goes rapidly down the plughole, I'd say he had 14-18mts to show some direction and Improvement
Early days yet.

 

[MikeH72]

Word is Gomes is [Poor language removed] and won't be seen for a while.

Word is all our other current midfielders are dreadful as well, not sure but big if true.

 

[Brendan Janus]

Idrissa Gueye is so poor !!

 

[Igrok]

Plus new defence and strikers

 

[mkrudden]

Surely I’ve said worse than the Cleverley shout?

The difference is that all of the players you mentioned have performed well at times in the past. Pickford is in bad form but I believe is a good keeper. Niasse is what he is, an impact striker off the bench. Tosun played poorly but hasn’t been here long. Holgate is an academy player struggling, Zouma a new signing.

Gueye Schneiderlin Siggurdson are all international that are supposed to be in their prime age at the top of their game. This should be the area of the team that we are not worrying about as we have three high value players in there with prem experience. Instead it’s been an absolute disaster area the last season and the start of this.

I’ve shown everyone the stats. I’ve not yet seen a rebuttal of them. 4 wins in 17, 3 of them when Davies took over. So really one in 17 averages out at about 3 wins over a league season if we start every game with these 3. That’s relegation material.

You've used team stats to try and make a specific player / cohort point. Which is bonkers because of the omissions from your stats you're allowing:

"Niasse is what he is, an impact striker of the bench"

Sorry? He didn't score when 6 yards out, alone. It doesn't matter if he's an impact sub or a starter, he's a striker WHO MISSED. Thus should attract criticism rather than a translated "ey let him off because it doesn't validate my point about the Unholy Trinity"

"Tosun played poorly but hasn’t been here long"

Eh? How does the time he's been here have any impact on the free header he had? Or the shot nearly inside the 6 yard box. Would his sight have improved the more time he had scouring Liverpool One for a fine Turkish eatery? He missed two absolute sitters.
But no, not worthy of condemnation. Instead he gets a buy for the most ridiculous reasons!

Shall I go on? Sure, no problem.

On Holgate: "an academy player struggling". Yes he is struggling. Struggling because he's not doing the basics. He was woeful yesterday. Now, I've always said as you know, inexperience means inconsistency and that's fine. But he was terrible yesterday and I can't remember a game he's been ace in. But nope, not worthy of criticism in your book.

"Zouma a new signing"

lol

And?!

He's played in the Champions League. He's on loan from a fantastic team. He's only not getting in their team because of Luiz, Azpil', Rudiger et al.

He wasn't poor yesterday because of a mix up or poor communication with his new team mates. He fell hook, line and sinker for a one two over his head. Really poor.

I actually don't think any of the above should draw too much criticism. We are still a work in progress. But I include in that the players you mention in your bizarre trio of people to blame.

You're nuts. Not in a rude way but a jovial one.

 

[orly]

The midfield functions a whole lot better with Tom Davies in there.

You all know it as well.

Lol

 

[Saint Domingo]

You've used team stats to try and make a specific player / cohort point. Which is bonkers because of the omissions from your stats you're allowing:

"Niasse is what he is, an impact striker of the bench"

Sorry? He didn't score when 6 yards out, alone. It doesn't matter if he's an impact sub or a starter, he's a striker WHO MISSED. Thus should attract criticism rather than a translated "ey let him off because it doesn't validate my point about the Unholy Trinity"

"Tosun played poorly but hasn’t been here long"

Eh? How does the time he's been here have any impact on the free header he had? Or the shot nearly inside the 6 yard box. Would his sight have improved the more time he had scouring Liverpool One for a fine Turkish eatery? He missed two absolute sitters.
But no, not worthy of condemnation. Instead he gets a buy for the most ridiculous reasons!

Shall I go on? Sure, no problem.

On Holgate: "an academy player struggling". Yes he is struggling. Struggling because he's not doing the basics. He was woeful yesterday. Now, I've always said as you know, inexperience means inconsistency and that's fine. But he was terrible yesterday and I can't remember a game he's been ace in. But nope, not worthy of criticism in your book.

"Zouma a new signing"

lol

And?!

He's played in the Champions League. He's on loan from a fantastic team. He's only not getting in their team because of Luiz, Azpil', Rudiger et al.

He wasn't poor yesterday because of a mix up or poor communication with his new team mates. He fell hook, line and sinker for a one two over his head. Really poor.

I actually don't think any of the above should draw too much criticism. We are still a work in progress. But I include in that the players you mention in your bizarre trio of people to blame.

You're nuts. Not in a rude way but a jovial one.

It’s not a thread about other players though. There’s loads of threads criticising everyone. My gripe and the subject of this thread are three midfielders that I believe deserve criticism due to their profile. I can easily criticise everyone but I’m trying to be patient with young players and new signings and not get on their back immediately after one bad performance. As I said though these are three international players in their prime with experience in the prem and at Everton and they have served up over a year or relegation form. People might not like their favourites being called out but this is the truth. 1 win in 17 games when the three of them have played in midfield.

 

[Zatara]

Agree with your core assessment 100%
But wouldn't be dumping on Silva too much.
He was very poor yesterday, but wouldn't call it stubbornness, I think he completely lost it.
The question is why?

I believe the powers that be have made some really bad decisions, starting with Koeman.
What your accusing Silva of should really be directed at Moshiri, Kenwright and co.
I'm a big fan of Koeman's, being of dutch heritage. He was a hero of mine on the field.
He played for Cruyff and played with Guardiola and Laudrup. He has a very good understanding of a particular type of football.
Its what the owners want to transplant into Everton. The ambition was right, the timing was diabolical.
The Netherlands have been appalling in recent times, failing to qualify for the last two major championships.
But its there style that's been the hardest to take. And it gets down to one thing, you can't play total football (modern version of), you can't play 4-3-3 unless you have the players to execute it. Otherwise you end up with the dross Van Gaal served up at Man U.

But if you keep an eye on the Netherlands you'll see things will change pretty quickly now.
They've learnt to adapt more. There strongest players are 3-4 world class CB's, so they play with 3 at the back with two wing backs.
But now Koeman has the one player that can make the Dutch dance again - Frenkie De Jong.
He has the player to be able to do what he knows.
Koeman had knocked back offers from the KNVB before. He's been waiting, biding his time.
Holland will get relegated in the nations league against France and Germany but by the next Euros they'll be back near the top (if they find a striker)
with Koeman at the helm, maybe another WC final on the horizon.

Unless Moshiri is able to get the likes of Frenkie, Mathais De Light and a world class striker, which he won't, there's no use getting a coach who matches that.
They should have started with someone like Benetiz.
And bought the current Barry, Milner, bought the best striker, and the best two playmakers (8,10) you can.
Then build a side around them. Adapt to what you got and progress.
As it gets better, spend money on attracting the best. And we'll cement ourselves in the Top 7 where we belong.
Patient progress. Not the mess that currently exists.
Yesterday a good coach lost his patience on the sidelines, probably at his wits end.
Yesterday we had our best player sitting up in the stands thinking god knows what.
If you want your coach to adapt, then you'd expect the leaders above to be showing the way.
As it stands, it looks like we've got bedwetters up above leading this cub.
If your lucky you get a player like Richarlison come along every now and then, something you didn't expect.
We got him, but but we probably don't have a team there to keep him.
We may get lucky in the next couple of windows.
But if not, we need to make sure the next time around we've got things sorted.
Silva's got a massive task ahead of him.

Fair play for the post...interesting views.

For me, Koeman was out of his depth at the two clubs (valencia and Everton) where he was expected to reach certain levels of performance.

His style of play at both clubs was poor and he seems to only achieve when he has limited expectations and/or superior players, he is NOT a tactical genius...

I'm a bit lost on why you mention about De Ligt, Frenkie and 'a world class forward'. We have Brazils new number 9...Bernard who was courted by some top sides and of course Digne who has high level experience...along with the yet seen Mina who has earned global recognition.

These are high level players and Brands' task (as he did so well at PSV) is to add to this batch...

The last thing we need is a chequebook manager...the way to reach the top is to have an innovative tactician and a DOF to support his style with novel exciting signings...who are young and can improve.

In my opinion, you could class it as 'luck' to have Richarlison but Silva spotted him and signed him twice when the media were up arms this time.

Theres something brewing at the club and this is far more exciting than i could ever expect under Ronald Koeman.

I think there is a double problem with them. Firstly they are only solid players who are the wrong age to get much better. The 2nd is they seem to bring the worst out in each other.

It's hard to have all of them. If you are individually brilliant, young enough to get better, or just fit a system you stand a chance.

I don't know how we resolve the issue. However Gana playing box to box doesn't work.

Good post.