The Unholy Trinity

[jaycee]

None of the 3 that started today gel together,Gana is a nuisance and can win the ball but after that hes lost,he lacks vision and lacks the skill set to play a through ball,Schnidelein doesnt seem to have a style,he doesnt have drive,he isnt very good defensively and he doesnt create or score,Siggy is, I dont know,he doesnt lack skill but he floats on the edge of the game far too much for my liking

 

[Blue Roo]

...you said, ’midfield has been a problem for a while, as has defence’ but the forward line has hardly been great either.

I know it’s understandable that there’s a knee jerk reaction after a defeat, but it would be more analytical if these strategic problems were highlighted after a win. I agree with you last paragraph.

I'm a fan of your posting but can't agree with you on this.
I reckon if Richarlison had been playing today we would have had at least got a point; given the good work Digne, Walcott, Kenny and Bernard were doing, it just needed Rico instead of DCL and we would of been at east two more goals to the good.
A win or draw and you wouldn't be seeing this type of critique, fume aside.
And its legitimate and necessary critique.
There are major problems here and the responses that it'll be ok, we've got injuries, players and the coaches need time, they're young, we won't get relegated is exactly the type of thinking that will never sees us break through the ceiling, put in a decent european campaign, dominate the RS.
There's something wrong when the coach bottles it and selects a player who should have been back in France with his family, then loses it completely by abandoning all protection in front of a very inexperienced back four.
There's something wrong when you spend serious money on a player like Sig, the marquee signing, and then have coach after coach not know how to build the side to him or refuse to think that he might not be the solution
There's something wrong when people are only realising now that Gana's not the answer.
There's something wrong when the only top class striker we've had in 15 years never really wanted to be here.
The list just keeps going
Do we have to wait until we've had a win to be questioning these things

 

[toffee-L]

They are not atrocious players individually, they are much better than crud like Cleverley, Neville and Heitinga so they are by no means the worst centre midfielders we've had since the turn of the century.

However, centre midfield is a major problem. The three players in question compliment each other horribly. They each have a couple of core strengths but they literally can't do anything outside of those strengths. Watching Gana try and pass the ball is truly sad to witness.

Either Gomes gets himself fit and quick or I fear we won't be able to sort this until January. Davies is not the answer in this team, he cannot play in a midfield 2 and Vlasic is rightly out on loan - horrible shout saying he should be playing. Besic is maybe one who could have done something but it is quite telling that not a single other premier league side wanted him last summer. Think we're stuck with these crappers for the foreseeable but they might raise their game once Richarlison and Bernard get into the side together, they will provide more movement off the ball which is desperately needed.

 

[Zatara]

..another ‘after a defeat’ thread.

Midfield has been a problem for a while, as has defence. Only natural when people go looking for answers after a bad game.

I just think it will take the team and the manager time to figure everything out and I believe we’ll be much stronger and better with a full compliment to choose from.

I agree with the sentiment. Our midfielders are garbage. Schneiderlin and especially Gueye are woeful. Gueye is grossly overrated by some and it baffles me given her couldn't find a team mate if the other team were on strike.

But then you mentioned Tom Cleverley.

Therefore it's BED for you.

A modern midfield is typically made in two different ways:

Option 1 is the way Barcelona and Portugal play.

A pivot who takes the ball of the centre backs, sniffs out danger and feeds the ball forwards to the advanced midfielders. Best in the world at this is Busquets. Barry did this for us.

Then two midfielders who operate as all rounders - think Xavi/Modric/Iniesta/Moutinho/KDB/Silva

They must be able to keep possession, both to get the ball into their front players but also to control the game.

Other option is to have a double pivot, with a sitter, a box to box and an attacking midfielder. Think France with Kante and Matuidi giving Pogba more freedom, or even us with Barry, McCarthy and Barkley.

At the moment we don't have anything but the box to box - Davies, McCarthy, Gana, Scneiderlin do that adequately but only Gomes can do the all rounder role.

In Everton terms we need our Barry, Arteta and Barkley to get that combination of passing and the ability to break lines with forward passes and dribbles.

Need someone that can get their foot on a ball, got no one that can dictate the pace of a game

...you said, ’midfield has been a problem for a while, as has defence’ but the forward line has hardly been great either.

I know it’s understandable that there’s a knee jerk reaction after a defeat, but it would be more analytical if these strategic problems were highlighted after a win. I agree with you last paragraph.

The unholy trinity have started together 17 times. Of those 17 we’ve won 4, drawn 6 and lost 7.

The 4 wins: Bournemouth (h) (both goals scored after Davies replaced MS to rescue a losing position), Newcastle (a), Swansea (h) (all goals scored after Davies replaced MS early in the game), Southampton (h) (MS went off early with the score at 1-0 to be replaced by Davies)

That means we have won 1 game out of 17 when all three have started together and played 90 minutes (If memory serves me correctly we had 2 shots on target that night both from the same move that led to Rooneys goal)

So when people say ‘they’re not that bad’ etc. They’re wrong. The stats show it. They are woeful.

disagree mate the 3 being ok is not good enough for Everton we demand more than ok .that kid in midfield for them rice is no better than our players but he was hungrier and basically just harassed them .we never seem to win the second ball it drives me nuts .so being ok is a load of Barry White TBH you think reid and bracewell we're happy with ok not a chance because they were winners mate if only these crabs had a bit of the same about them

Just got back but looked like we bossed midfield for me, dominated possession, overall better team.
One of those performances where our defensive positioning means they look dangerous 3 times and score 3 goals for me.

We haven’t replaced Barry who needed replacing but when he signed for us he was streets ahead of anything we have got now. Hopefully Gomes will slot in have the same impact as Barry in his 1st deason

This midfield doesn't function because all of them only do one thing well and nobody carries the ball if Davies doesn't play. If Davies plays he gets hammered for trying to go forward and being erratic, but he tries and has legs. Gana can break up play that's it. Snide can hold and play square balls that's it, Siggy can play one twos and shoot that's it. We need an all rounder, is Gomes the man ? I hope so but we need a box to box player with power we are weak with these three.

Just feel most teams just bully us all over the park and when we finally gain possession, were not good enough to keep it.

Naming Rooney Besic Cleverley Klaasen Vlasic doesn't exactly help your point, especially when you add in Barkley.
But your last bit...
'As a three and a combination they are truely woeful' is nail on head

Ive said for ages we have plenty of individual players in this position and that position
BUT NO MIDFIELD

None of the 3 that started today gel together,Gana is a nuisance and can win the ball but after that hes lost,he lacks vision and lacks the skill set to play a through ball,Schnidelein doesnt seem to have a style,he doesnt have drive,he isnt very good defensively and he doesnt create or score,Siggy is, I dont know,he doesnt lack skill but he floats on the edge of the game far too much for my liking

I'm a fan of your posting but can't agree with you on this.
I reckon if Richarlison had been playing today we would have had at least got a point; given the good work Digne, Walcott, Kenny and Bernard were doing, it just needed Rico instead of DCL and we would of been at east two more goals to the good.
A win or draw and you wouldn't be seeing this type of critique, fume aside.
And its legitimate and necessary critique.
There are major problems here and the responses that it'll be ok, we've got injuries, players and the coaches need time, they're young, we won't get relegated is exactly the type of thinking that will never sees us break through the ceiling, put in a decent european campaign, dominate the RS.
There's something wrong when the coach bottles it and selects a player who should have been back in France with his family, then loses it completely by abandoning all protection in front of a very inexperienced back four.
There's something wrong when you spend serious money on a player like Sig, the marquee signing, and then have coach after coach not know how to build the side to him or refuse to think that he might not be the solution
There's something wrong when people are only realising now that Gana's not the answer.
There's something wrong when the only top class striker we've had in 15 years never really wanted to be here.
The list just keeps going
Do we have to wait until we've had a win to be questioning these things

They are not atrocious players individually, they are much better than crud like Cleverley, Neville and Heitinga so they are by no means the worst centre midfielders we've had since the turn of the century.

However, centre midfield is a major problem. The three players in question compliment each other horribly. They each have a couple of core strengths but they literally can't do anything outside of those strengths. Watching Gana try and pass the ball is truly sad to witness.

Either Gomes gets himself fit and quick or I fear we won't be able to sort this until January. Davies is not the answer in this team, he cannot play in a midfield 2 and Vlasic is rightly out on loan - horrible shout saying he should be playing. Besic is maybe one who could have done something but it is quite telling that not a single other premier league side wanted him last summer. Think we're stuck with these crappers for the foreseeable but they might raise their game once Richarlison and Bernard get into the side together, they will provide more movement off the ball which is desperately needed.

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

 

[mahermi1]

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

Great post.

 

[jazzy]

It is difficult to think of 3 full internationals playing in midfield that have less quality and cohesion.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Schneiderlin Gueye Siggurdson. Over 70 million pounds of ‘talent’ yet in my option they are the worst Everton midfield I’ve seen since the turn of the century.

In recent times we’ve seen Rooney Besic Cleverley Klaasen Vlasic leave the club whilst these three have remained. Apart from Klaasen I would rather see any of these players in our midfield (not that any are good enough, but they are better in my opinion than the unholy trinity).

Serious recruitment is needed in this area. Neville and Carsley would have bossed this midfield with ease never mind the likes of Arteta Pienaar Cahill Fellaini Fernandes etc. A teenage centreback from West Ham who hasn’t played this season and has never played midfield has completely run all over the unholy trinity. They are truly terrible players and amongst the worst midfielders in the league and have been for a long time now. Some of them have looked ok when either Barkley or Rooney has held their hands but as a three and a combination they are truely woeful.

Can anyone think of worse?

Heads utterly fallen off here lol

 

[Zatara]

@Saint Domingo for what its worth, i think if we had 1 top DM then Besic and Vlasic may have been good enough to play CM rather than Gana and Schneiderlin.

Besic though just hasnt got the overall quality to push us on...Vlasic needs to improve his defensive side + consistency -- he seems to be doing well for CSKA.

We certainly will have shown Brands and Silva what they need to do...clearly sell the midfield and replace.

 

[Steve0]

Schneiderlin Gueye Siggurdson. Over 70 million pounds of ‘talent’ yet in my option they are the worst Everton midfield I’ve seen since the turn of the century.

In recent times we’ve seen Rooney Besic Cleverley Klaasen Vlasic leave the club whilst these three have remained. Apart from Klaasen I would rather see any of these players in our midfield (not that any are good enough, but they are better in my opinion than the unholy trinity).

Serious recruitment is needed in this area. Neville and Carsley would have bossed this midfield with ease never mind the likes of Arteta Pienaar Cahill Fellaini Fernandes etc. A teenage centreback from West Ham who hasn’t played this season and has never played midfield has completely run all over the unholy trinity. They are truly terrible players and amongst the worst midfielders in the league and have been for a long time now. Some of them have looked ok when either Barkley or Rooney has held their hands but as a three and a combination they are truely woeful.

Can anyone think of worse?

Sigurddsson is one of our best players but the other two really are dreadful. I've tried to get behind the Gueye hype but he's just rubbish.

Literally any two CMS from any top 6 squad would improve us. Henderson and Herrera, Winks and Foden, Drinkwater and Fellaini, Elneny and Maitland Niles. It's dire AF.

Hopefully Gomes will do that. For a season. For a bit of a season. Also never thought I'd say this, but I'm looking forward to McCarthy's return.

 

[degsy]

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

A poor manager is one who plays a system that doesn't best suit the players available.

But tbh, I don't think there's a system in the known universe that would work with what we have at the moment...and even when the sicknotes are all up and running, its only a 50/50 bet at best.

We don't have a MIDFIELD, we have average Individuals failing to hit even average for them form.

 

[Shipped]

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

Bernard has played 50 minutes football in this country, Mina 0.
While I too have high hopes for them I've no idea how they walk in to your 'permanent' team.

Also I don't get why you're replying to like 15 people at once.
Don't know about everyone else but I think it's a little rude.

 

[Stephenlloyd]

Schneiderlin Gueye Siggurdson. Over 70 million pounds of ‘talent’ yet in my option they are the worst Everton midfield I’ve seen since the turn of the century.

In recent times we’ve seen Rooney Besic Cleverley Klaasen Vlasic leave the club whilst these three have remained. Apart from Klaasen I would rather see any of these players in our midfield (not that any are good enough, but they are better in my opinion than the unholy trinity).

Serious recruitment is needed in this area. Neville and Carsley would have bossed this midfield with ease never mind the likes of Arteta Pienaar Cahill Fellaini Fernandes etc. A teenage centreback from West Ham who hasn’t played this season and has never played midfield has completely run all over the unholy trinity. They are truly terrible players and amongst the worst midfielders in the league and have been for a long time now. Some of them have looked ok when either Barkley or Rooney has held their hands but as a three and a combination they are truely woeful.

Can anyone think of worse?

I’ve said the same for 12months, how people can rate gana is beyond belief imo.
It’s ridiculous how we sold Barkley fir 15 mil and spent 45 on siggurdsson.

With the likelihood of us buying a striker in Jan, and maybe silva see’s Bernard in the 10 role, I wonder if they will try and get some money back on siggurdsson?

But centre midfield is a major problem, needs a complete overhaul in the next 2 windows.
We can’t start next season with the same midfield, not that I’m already giving up on this season, it was always going to be a transitional season.

The one positive for me, is the new signings so far have looked good, hopefully Mina & Gomes can also come in and do well.

 

[Yarrgh]

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

The only issue with this post is that Veron did come off in one game... against us. He was like a magician with that ball and how he had the Everton players fall away. Very rarely have I ever seen a player school us like he did. I was mesmerised by him, as were our players.

Tricky problem our midfield. If it can gel under Silva's tactics, it will need time. Or a better player or 2. No easy fixes there then. But they're not helped out by the defence requiring constant vigilance from them either.

Achh, who'd be an Evertonian after a loss hey?

 

[Zatara]

Sigurddsson is one of our best players but the other two really are dreadful. I've tried to get behind the Gueye hype but he's just rubbish.

Literally any two CMS from any top 6 squad would improve us. Henderson and Herrera, Winks and Foden, Drinkwater and Fellaini, Elneny and Maitland Niles. It's dire AF.

Hopefully Gomes will do that. For a season. For a bit of a season. Also never thought I'd say this, but I'm looking forward to McCarthy's return.

As i posted earlier, disagree about Sigurdsson.

The players listed arent going to push on in Silvas system.. at least imo.

A poor manager is one who plays a system that doesn't best suit the players available.

But tbh, I don't think there's a system in the known universe that would work with what we have at the moment...and even when the sicknotes are all up and running, its only a 50/50 bet at best.

We don't have a MIDFIELD, we have average Individuals failing to hit even average for them form.

I think Neville and Carragher were discussing this on MNF (which i saw on youtube).

Neville was saying the manager needs to choose his system and its up to the players to show they can be effective in it...if not = adios.

Carragher said the manager should adapt (as you believe).

I would prefer the manager to stick to his ethos and play his way...1 season of transition and enormous changes is worth it.

Or else why hire that manager...

Bernard has played 50 minutes football in this country, Mina 0.
While I too have high hopes for them I've no idea how they walk in to your 'permanent' team.

Also I don't get why you're replying to like 15 people at once.
Don't know about everyone else but I think it's a little rude.

Because they are permanent signings...

There is a multi-quote function and ive been told by mods in the past to use it...as apparently it clogs up threads otherwise.

If you find it rude then take it up with the mods...

I’ve said the same for 12months, how people can rate gana is beyond belief imo.
It’s ridiculous how we sold Barkley fir 15 mil and spent 45 on siggurdsson.

With the likelihood of us buying a striker in Jan, and maybe silva see’s Bernard in the 10 role, I wonder if they will try and get some money back on siggurdsson?

But centre midfield is a major problem, needs a complete overhaul in the next 2 windows.
We can’t start next season with the same midfield, not that I’m already giving up on this season, it was always going to be a transitional season.

The one positive for me, is the new signings so far have looked good, hopefully Mina & Gomes can also come in and do well.

If Bernard moves to 10 and Richarlison stays on the left then its exciting to think of the damage they can do together...

 

[Stephenlloyd]

This has been a problem and key weakness in the team for years.

Teams fine it easy to come through our midfield with passing and pace. The positioning seems non-existent at times...attack wise not a single centre midfielder has the nous to open up the opposition.

At the moment I'd say our 'permanent' team in the eyes of Brands and Silva looks like;

Pickford
??? -- ??? -- Mina -- Digne
???
??? -- ???
??? --Richarlison -- Bernard
​

As @Timak pointed out, there are 2 ways to set up the midfield in a 3.

A-- 1 DM to take the ball off the defence, great passer and able to perform as a 'deep playmaker' + 2 CMs who are very good all rounders.

B-- Similar to the RS, Gerrard,Mascherano,Alonso with 2 sitting back and one advanced.

Silva was quoted as saying he prefers to play with 1 DM.

The importance of the role is highlighted when looking at Neves for Wolves...take him out and they wont be the same team. Ferguson went for Veron at United for the role but it didnt work out...

I think we are still 6 starters away from being a very good side. The recruitment of the players this summer should give us optimism for top notch incomings.

Centre forward is a major concern but i think we need to focus on centre midfield. We simply have to sign 1 super midfielder in January to play the DM role...

I'd be going to Wolves with £60mil for Neves. He would totally change the scope of the team...otherwise i hope Brands and Silva have someone in mind.

I’ve just posted about Bernard playing in the 10role, but I also wonder if going forward silva/Brands are looking to play a 3 man midfield with no natural number 10.

Having one defensive midfielder and 2 either side, who both can go box to box and offer a threat in the final 3rd. Can’t think of to many names of the top of my head, but hopefully after the next 2 windows, we will start to see the shape and style the manager wants.