Messi "best player of all time"

[FC sexy xxx]

That's right. Also a statement which does not preclude me thinking Messi is a great player.

*sigh*

Like I said you don’t deserve eyesight mate

 

[Papa Shango]

Some rawkesque levels of delusion in this thread regarding Ronaldo being better . Embarrassing.

Ronaldo is unreal there is no doubt . But the way some of you are putting down messi’s achievements you’d think he was on the level of that Russian crab Bily who played for us .
Some of you don’t deserve eyesight because you clearly don’t watch football properly. Either that or it’s agenda driven nonsense.

What possible agenda could anyone on here have regarding Messi? He has had nothing remotely to do with Everton for example.

I hate best ever talk though. Usually because its always talk about the best ever attackers, not the best ever full stop. I was a defender when I used to play though so I have more of an affinity to them. Give me a Beckenbaur, Baresi, Sammer, Maldini, Passarella, Koeman or Hottiger and day of the week over these fancy dan attackers.

 

[Papa Shango]

You must have watched a really, really weird selection of games. I mean, Ronaldo wasn't even the 'most impactful' on the pitch in the very last game he played. Or in massive games like the Champions League final.

I said earlier in the thread I honestly wouldn't say one of them is better than the other, but to see people actually suggesting Messi isn't even in the same category is absolutely staggering. I'm not sure I can take someone's opinion on football seriously if they don't even think Messi is better than Busquets.

How can those two even be compared? It's like saying Pele was rubbish in goal.

 

[FC sexy xxx]

What possible agenda could anyone on here have regarding Messi? He has had nothing remotely to do with Everton for example.

I hate best ever talk though. Usually because its always talk about the best ever attackers, not the best ever full stop. I was a defender when I used to play though so I have more of an affinity to them. Give me a Beckenbaur, Baresi, Sammer, Maldini, Passarella, Koeman or Hottiger and day of the week over these fancy dan attackers.

People can have an agenda on anything. Mayweather pacman was very similar. People will say anything to suit an agenda .

 

[davek]

Like I said you don’t deserve eyesight mate

Terrible thing to say.

 

[FC sexy xxx]

Terrible thing to say.

Mate I’m blind in one eye and only got about 50% in the other and even I can judge a footballer better than you lol

 

[Lanolin]

How can those two even be compared? It's like saying Pele was rubbish in goal.

It isn't really, because i'm not saying Busquets is rubbish. Busquets is superb, but we're talking about 'impactful' players here, so while Busquets is arguably the best in the world at what he does, what he does can be done by many other players. If Barcelona replaced him with any of 20/30 quality central midfielders, I think it would have little impact on their success, but there are literally only 2/3 players in the world who can do what Messi can do. He can win games single handedly, as can Ronaldo, which is why these sort of discussions tend to focus on those two. We can get all hipster and talk about how water carriers are criminally underrated and you shouldn't underestimate the value of a good attacking full back, but the truth is the game is about matchwinners. Saying Busquets is better than Messi is like saying Jason Gillespie was better than Shane Warne because he had a better economy rate. Both fantastic players in their own right but only one would ever be seen as a true great of the game.

 

[StateSideToffee]

It isn't really, because i'm not saying Busquets is rubbish. Busquets is superb, but we're talking about 'impactful' players here, so while Busquets is arguably the best in the world at what he does, what he does can be done by many other players. If Barcelona replaced him with any of 20/30 quality central midfielders, I think it would have little impact on their success, but there are literally only 2/3 players in the world who can do what Messi can do. He can win games single handedly, as can Ronaldo, which is why these sort of discussions tend to focus on those two. We can get all hipster and talk about how water carriers are criminally underrated and you shouldn't underestimate the value of a good attacking full back, but the truth is the game is about matchwinners. Saying Busquets is better than Messi is like saying Jason Gillespie was better than Shane Warne because he had a better economy rate. Both fantastic players in their own right but only one would ever be seen as a true great of the game.

Let me preface this by acknowledging that although football is one of the larger passions of my life and that I have devoted thousands of hours playing the beautiful game; it is likely that I will never quite understand the depths of my ignorance of all the subtleties of the game. I believe this holds true for many of us.

With that acknowledged I greatly appreciate the ability for all of us to debate our different interpretations and opinions as it challenges what I think I know and acts as a catalyst to grow my understanding of the game.

In this case I believe that your opinion is a by product of the football community as a whole overvaluing the importance of the more attacking players and undervaluing the importance of those players in more defensive roles that provide structure, discipline, creativity, and control the pace and flow of matches.

Thanks for the differing opinions lads; mine are just as likely flawed as the rest of yours.

 

[Lanolin]

Let me preface this by acknowledging that although football is one of the larger passions of my life and that I have devoted thousands of hours playing the beautiful game; it is likely that I will never quite understand the depths of my ignorance of all the subtleties of the game. I believe this holds true for many of us.

With that acknowledged I greatly appreciate the ability for all of us to debate our different interpretations and opinions as it challenges what I think I know and acts as a catalyst to grow my understanding of the game.

In this case I believe that your opinion is a by product of the football community as a whole overvaluing the importance of the more attacking players and undervaluing the importance of those players in more defensive roles that provide structure, discipline, creativity, and control the pace and flow of matches.

Thanks for the differing opinions lads; mine are just as likely flawed as the rest of yours.

Attacking contributions aren't 'overvalued', they're valued proportionately higher because they're more difficult.

Look at how the CL final changed when Salah went off, and Real suddenly found themselves up against a team full of quite good workmanlike players, rather than some good workmanlike players and a matchwinner. Look at the difference in Everton's performances last season compared to the season before - the defensive and midfield players were the same, but they were no longer being elevated by the attacking skills of Barkley and Lukaku.

All positions on a pitch are important, but you can defend very well without having particularly good defenders, by building an effective system and coaching players to do the right things. Moyes did that with us, Dyche is doing it with Burnley. You can't do that with attack though, there needs to be real talent there. That's why sides like Peru, Iran and Morocco have failed at this tournament - across the pitch they've (often more than) matched their opponents, but they haven't been able to put the ball in the net when it matters. That's why all the most expensive players in the world are attackers. The whole of the footballing world hasn't been labouring under a misconception for eternity only for one bloke to look at it from the outside and decide that actually Tony Hibbert was worth £50m if only people knew what they were looking for.

 

[Tony1985]

I don’t think it can be argued as a playmaker with the ball at his feet Messi is Better. If we are talking all round player, Ronaldo and it’s not even close.

 

[Papa Shango]

Attacking contributions aren't 'overvalued', they're valued proportionately higher because they're more difficult.

Look at how the CL final changed when Salah went off, and Real suddenly found themselves up against a team full of quite good workmanlike players, rather than some good workmanlike players and a matchwinner. Look at the difference in Everton's performances last season compared to the season before - the defensive and midfield players were the same, but they were no longer being elevated by the attacking skills of Barkley and Lukaku.

All positions on a pitch are important, but you can defend very well without having particularly good defenders, by building an effective system and coaching players to do the right things. Moyes did that with us, Dyche is doing it with Burnley. You can't do that with attack though, there needs to be real talent there. That's why sides like Peru, Iran and Morocco have failed at this tournament - across the pitch they've (often more than) matched their opponents, but they haven't been able to put the ball in the net when it matters. That's why all the most expensive players in the world are attackers. The whole of the footballing world hasn't been labouring under a misconception for eternity only for one bloke to look at it from the outside and decide that actually Tony Hibbert was worth £50m if only people knew what they were looking for.

There is defending as a team and being a great defender though. You can set a team up to not concede many but the true greats are the ones who can defend brilliantly but do other things. Also teams can win stuff without having options up front. Greece, even France in 98 with Guiv'arch (apostrophe may be in the wrong place there...) up top.

A great player is a great player regardless of position, however it is hard to judge them directly against each other.

I still think Ronaldo is better than Messi though.... I love how people are fighting both sides like it is a preposterous notion one way or the other. Both are brilliant, both have a similar end result yet both reach that end result in different ways.

 

[Lanolin]

There is defending as a team and being a great defender though. You can set a team up to not concede many but the true greats are the ones who can defend brilliantly but do other things. Also teams can win stuff without having options up front. Greece, even France in 98 with Guiv'arch (apostrophe may be in the wrong place there...) up top.

A great player is a great player regardless of position, however it is hard to judge them directly against each other.

I still think Ronaldo is better than Messi though.... I love how people are fighting both sides like it is a preposterous notion one way or the other. Both are brilliant, both have a similar end result yet both reach that end result in different ways.

Totally agree with the last sentence, as I said earlier, I couldn't say one of them was better than the other.

I also agree that you absolutely can have great defenders, that goes without saying I think. It doesn't in any way diminish my point though, which is that you can get round not having great defenders, but it's much more difficult to get round not having great attackers. The use of Guivarc'h as an example is a little disingenuous, as he was effectively just a foil for France's better attacking players, Zidane, Henry and Djorkaeff, and was often subbed off for Trezeguet - all of whom were top class attackers. I didn't say that you couldn't win anything (particularly a knock out cup) without having great attackers though, simply that there is a reason why attackers are generally more coveted than defenders, because the ability they have is seen as more valuable.

 

[MarkK1988]

id rather share a sauna with ronaldo, the handsome sod

nothing would happen im not that way inclined hed just be more impressive

thats what im basing it on

rather have a night out with maradona (hes paying) than both

 

[FC sexy xxx]

Let me preface this by acknowledging that although football is one of the larger passions of my life and that I have devoted thousands of hours playing the beautiful game; it is likely that I will never quite understand the depths of my ignorance of all the subtleties of the game. I believe this holds true for many of us.

With that acknowledged I greatly appreciate the ability for all of us to debate our different interpretations and opinions as it challenges what I think I know and acts as a catalyst to grow my understanding of the game.

In this case I believe that your opinion is a by product of the football community as a whole overvaluing the importance of the more attacking players and undervaluing the importance of those players in more defensive roles that provide structure, discipline, creativity, and control the pace and flow of matches.

Thanks for the differing opinions lads; mine are just as likely flawed as the rest of yours.

WOOL

 

[Steve0]

I don’t think it can be argued as a playmaker with the ball at his feet Messi is Better. If we are talking all round player, Ronaldo and it’s not even close.

You've really GOT to explain what this means?

Because Messi has easily the better first touch....unless this counts as 'ball at his feet'.
Messi is definitely better at passing...unless this counts as 'ball at his feet'.
Messi comfortably has the better vision....unless this counts as 'ball at his feet'.
Messi has a better free-kick conversion rate...unless this counts as 'ball at his feet'.

I don't know what you're trying to say. Ronaldo has better aerial ability (though Messi has scored a header in a CL final) and probably has a harder shot....that's literally the only areas he bests Messi. IMHO.