The “Gammon” debate

[Walken]

So in your world all police officers in the USA are white racists? 13% of US police officers are black, in line with the general population. Are they all racist against blacks too? It's not as simple as what you are trying to infer. Of course there are racists in society, but what I'm saying is that racism isn't the cause of everything bad that goes on. There are a lot more factors inplay and to put it all down to institutionalised racism is to sweep the real problems under the carpet. Stop people being racist? there you go, law passed, racism is illegal. But do blacks stop murdering blacks because it's illegal for a police officer to shoot them while arresting them? Yes? I've got a bridge to sell you.

I'm perfectly willing to accept the social and economic factors, and I believe the US police force has issues beyond racism, as you say with a lot of factors in play, but previous to this post your argument seemed to be going down a road that there is no possibility of racism in these western institutions, which is a dangerous path. I can get much more onboard with your last post

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Black people in America commit crime due to racism. Countries with a Black majority and no white racism don't have these sort of problems.

Have you ever been to Nigeria?

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

I'm perfectly willing to accept the social and economic factors, and I believe the US police force has issues beyond racism, as you say with a lot of factors in play, but previous to this post your argument seemed to be going down a road that there is no possibility of racism in these western institutions, which is a dangerous path. I can get much more onboard with your last post

I don't believe I ever said there was no racism, but I do believe that racism is often used as a mask to cover up the real causes. i.e. it's easier to say someone was murdered by a racist than to try and find the real cause.

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

The problem with this argument is that (a) noone is pretending that racism is the cause of everything that is going on and (b) the line of thought you are coming out with is demonstrably racist.

(a)

Black people in America commit crime due to racism. Countries with a Black majority and no white racism don't have these sort of problems.

(b) how the hell is what I'm saying racist? You are doing exactly what I've been saying, accusing people of being racist because you don't want to face up to the reality.

 

[tsubaki]

(b) how the hell is what I'm saying racist? You are doing exactly what I've been saying, accusing people of being racist because you don't want to face up to the reality.

Well, exhibit A would be:

But you have to admit that a disproportionate amount of crime, violent crime and murder is commeitted by blacks in the USA. The fact that balcks make up 13% of the population and yet commit over 52% of the murders must tell you something.

with exhibit B being:

I think that "racism" is being used as an excuse to try and hide the reality. I also think that black Americans would do more for themselves by ditching the "African American" label and start calling themselves "American". After all if I was to move to Nigeria and became a Nigerian citizen (as if the Nigerians would allow that to happen ) I wouldn't be called a European African would I? The blacks in the USA (not all of them to be sure but a majority) are being used as pawns by the Democratic party in their political games. They are treated as people in need of constant financial support in the form of welfare instead of being encouraged to be useful Americans.

So basically you are arguing that because "they" commit a disproportionate amount of crime, they should rebrand themselves to something that is less black. What you are saying is the very definition of racism.

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Well, exhibit A would be:



with exhibit B being:



So basically you are arguing that because "they" commit a disproportionate amount of crime, they should rebrand themselves to something that is less black. What you are saying is the very definition of racism.

Giving you facts is racist? I think you are clutching at straws, and calling me racist is just name calling in an attempt to paint me in a bad light rather than winning an argument with facts, in the hope that I will shut up and go away. You'll be saying that I'm literally Hitler next
You didn't even attempt to answer the points I made, just described them as reasons why I'm a racist. Pathetic.

 

[tsubaki]

Giving you facts is racist? I think you are clutching at straws, and calling me racist is just name calling in an attempt to paint me in a bad light rather than winning an argument with facts, in the hope that I will shut up and go away. You'll be saying that I'm literally Hitler next
You didn't even attempt to answer the points I made, just described them as reasons why I'm a racist. Pathetic.

You haven't given any facts at all.

You've said that black people in the USA commit disproportionately more crime, violent crime and murder - which is a racist statement given that it immediately dismisses all of the other factors (social level, educational level, whether or not a person is employed, what social level their family is at etc) that are far more important when discussing whether or not someone is more or less likely to end up committing a crime than race is.

You then said that if black people in the US don't like it then they should change the phrase by which other people describe them, which is both bizarre and racist.

 

[Tubey]

But you have to admit that a disproportionate amount of crime, violent crime and murder is commeitted by blacks in the USA. The fact that balcks make up 13% of the population and yet commit over 52% of the murders must tell you something.
I think that "racism" is being used as an excuse to try and hide the reality. I also think that black Americans would do more for themselves by ditching the "African American" label and start calling themselves "American". After all if I was to move to Nigeria and became a Nigerian citizen (as if the Nigerians would allow that to happen ) I wouldn't be called a European African would I? The blacks in the USA (not all of them to be sure but a majority) are being used as pawns by the Democratic party in their political games. They are treated as people in need of constant financial support in the form of welfare instead of being encouraged to be useful Americans.

Yes, it tells me that there's massive socio-economic, financial and educational opportunity inequality in the United States, which acts as an underpinning reasons why there's massive disparity in crime statistics as a result.

You know, rather than what I have to assume is your assertion that blacks are genetically more predisposed to murder and violent crime? Because I quite literally cannot see any other way out of your assertion here whatsoever...

As for the rest of this rambling post... they aren't unique in having the suffix -American as a group - Asian-American, Oceanic-American and Latino-American are also used. And it has absolutely nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

Oh, and also, just for fun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Nigeria

Or, to summarise, what the hell are you talking about lad?

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Yes, it tells me that there's massive socio-economic, financial and educational opportunity inequality in the United States, which acts as an underpinning reasons why there's massive disparity in crime statistics as a result.

You know, rather than what I have to assume is your assertion that blacks are genetically more predisposed to murder and violent crime? Because I quite literally cannot see any other way out of your assertion here whatsoever...

As for the rest of this rambling post... they aren't unique in having the suffix -American as a group - Asian-American, Oceanic-American and Latino-American are also used. And it has absolutely nothing to do with anything whatsoever.

Oh, and also, just for fun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_Nigeria

Or, to summarise, what the hell are you talking about lad?

I never suggested or asserted that blacks are genetically more predisposed to anything. I would disagree with your assertion that there is massive educational opportunity inequality towards the coloured population in the US, in fact the opposite is true with the establishment bending over backwards to try and tilt the balance in their favour. It's called affirmative action.
As for your Asian American, Latino American stuff, so what? I only suggested that if they looked upon themselves as primarily American it might do them so good.

I'm sorry you can't understand plain English dad

 

[Tubey]

I never suggested or asserted that blacks are genetically more predisposed to anything. I would disagree with your assertion that there is massive educational opportunity inequality towards the coloured population in the US, in fact the opposite is true with the establishment bending over backwards to try and tilt the balance in their favour. It's called affirmative action.
As for your Asian American, Latino American stuff, so what? I only suggested that if they looked upon themselves as primarily American it might do them so good.

I'm sorry you can't understand plain English dad

....... ok mate x

 

[longers]

In fact the opposite is true with the establishment bending over backwards to try and tilt the balance in their favour. It's called affirmative action.

Affirmative action is not available in all states and most experts on the subject will tell you that even in the states where it is in action it's not anywhere near enough to tip the balance in their favour.

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

You haven't given any facts at all.

You've said that black people in the USA commit disproportionately more crime, violent crime and murder - which is a racist statement given that it immediately dismisses all of the other factors (social level, educational level, whether or not a person is employed, what social level their family is at etc) that are far more important when discussing whether or not someone is more or less likely to end up committing a crime than race is.

You then said that if black people in the US don't like it then they should change the phrase by which other people describe them, which is both bizarre and racist.

Look at the crime statistics! How can me quoting crime statistics be a racist statement? The other factors that you mention are all part of the problem, but they don't change the facts given in the statistics. Again you are trying to shut me up by name calling which is pathetic.

Also I did not say that "if black people in the US don't like it then they should change the phrase by which other people describe them". If you're going to quote someone, make sure you quote them properly and not twist the words to suit your argument.

 

[Sarnia Kevin]

Affirmative action is not available in all states and most experts on the subject will tell you that even in the states where it is in action it's not anywhere near enough to tip the balance in their favour.

And why is that? Has anyone made a study into the reason why other than "white privilege"?

 

[Tubey]

And why is that? Has anyone made a study into the reason why other than "white privilege"?

You tell us mate - tell us in plain English why black people commit more crime as a percentage of population in the United States.

Because you've been given the answer to your question what feels like 50 times already.

 

[longers]

And why is that? Has anyone made a study into the reason why other than "white privilege"?

Because the system is still heavily tilted towards people with money. Donald Trump’s kids didn't particularly excel at an academic level and yet they didn’t ever have to worry about getting into Penn. The median net worth of a black household is 7 percent that of a white household... why is that ? because of the US governments policies back in the day which resulted in black people being denied wealth and the same opportunities as white folk.

Do you think white privilege is made up ?