Ross Barkley

[Titus Bramble]

I think that's just attributing everything that's happened with Barkely since Koeman arrived as being completely good and what he was as a player before then was just a peripheral figure. That beggars belief.

He looks shackled to me. As said, I'm not going to be churlish about it and say that Koeman isn't right that Barkley needed to simplify at times, he did. But for me it's also been adverse because the player looks whipped. He might well be fitting in with the orthodoxy in terms of the way this manager wants to operate and he goes along with that for an easy life. But that isn't the same as saying he's being used properly or to the max.

If he went to City or United or Chelsea he would not be coached the way he is now.

Basically here's what I'm saying: Barkley at this club at the moment is like giving donkeys strawberries - completely wasted. The talent he has should be showcased in a far more sophisticated set up than the work ethic environment it endures in now.

Heaven forbid a player has instructions to follow to help his team win more games

 

[banno]

Putting stats aside.....I want him to stay at Everton for many a year. He is an excellent player and even if some of his stats do not better some other players I still want him at Everton. I can see he is a terrific player and we benefit from having him. Trying to be simplistic here and a stat will not make me think he is dog turd

 

[bluestevon]

Tbf, "key passes" and "chances created" are two BS categories really aren't they? The only key pass I recognise is one that sets up a goal directly, otherwise you could be there all day describing any pass in a 6 pass move that starts in your own half as a key pass because it eventually ended up with the ball in the net. Same as the chances created one: you knock the ball in the box from a corner and someone gets their head first to it and it's deemed a chance created.

They are numb nuts categories designed to obfuscate as much as enlighten. At least a "number of dribbles" stat shows intent to attack and impose yourself on the opposition clear enough.

Key passes don't tell you anythig then as a stat Dave?

top 5 from 14/15 Ozil, Silva, Fabregas, Hazzard, Sanchez
top 5 from 15/16 Ozil, Payet, Eriksen, DeBruyne, Silva

top 5 from this season Payet, Eriksen, De Bruyne, Ozil, Barkley/Sanchez


I would say that contains some of the most highly rated creative players in the league in every season, and this is the first season Barkley has featured anywhere near those names, doe sthat not suggest something?

Or is Barkley this season the one abberation in those lists of highly creative players - over the past 3 years - yanno the only one whose had the creative side of his game neutered?

For comparasion lets look at the quality of players the past 3 seasons who have occupied the 'most dribbles' top 5

14/15 Hazzard, Chamberlain, Moses, Sanchez, Coutinho
15/16 Zaha, Mahrez, Sanchez, Barkley, Bolasie
16/17 Traore, Hazzard, Zaha, Bouffal, Dembele

out of the 12 players there - all bar Barkley and Dembele are wide players/wingers

every single one of the players listed in the top 5 on key passes are regarded as elite playmakers mate, the ones who dominate the dribbles per game stats are a very mixedd bag (Zaha, Bolasie, Bouffal, Traore, Chamberlain, Moses( playing on the wing in 14/15) would never ever be described as amongst the best creative playmakers in the country would they?

 

[Amw79]

Key passes don't tell you anythig then as a stat Dave?

top 5 from 14/15 Ozil, Silva, Fabregas, Hazzard, Sanchez
top 5 from 15/16 Ozil, Payet, Eriksen, DeBruyne, Silva

top 5 from this season Payet, Eriksen, De Bruyne, Ozil, Barkley/Sanchez


I would say that contains some of the most highly rated creative players in the league in every season, and this is the first season Barkley has featured anywhere near those names, doe sthat not suggest something?

Or is Barkley this season the one abberation in those lists of highly creative players - over the past 3 years - yanno the only one whose had the creative side of his game neutered?

For comparasion lets look at the quality of players the past 3 seasons who have occupied the 'most dribbles' top 5

14/15 Hazzard, Chamberlain, Moses, Sanchez, Coutinho
15/16 Zaha, Mahrez, Sanchez, Barkley, Bolasie
16/17 Traore, Hazzard, Zaha, Bouffal, Dembele

out of the 12 players there - all bar Barkley and Dembele are wide players/wingers

every single one of the players listed in the top 5 on key passes are regarded as elite playmakers mate, the ones who dominate the dribbles per game stats are a very mixedd bag (Zaha, Bolasie, Bouffal, Traore, Chamberlain, Moses( playing on the wing in 14/15) would never ever be described as amongst the best creative playmakers in the country would they?

Id given up. But nice work this.

 

[Wizard]

I think that's just attributing everything that's happened with Barkely since Koeman arrived as being completely good and what he was as a player before then was just a peripheral figure. That beggars belief.

He looks shackled to me. As said, I'm not going to be churlish about it and say that Koeman isn't right that Barkley needed to simplify at times, he did. But for me it's also been adverse because the player looks whipped. He might well be fitting in with the orthodoxy in terms of the way this manager wants to operate and he goes along with that for an easy life. But that isn't the same as saying he's being used properly or to the max.

If he went to City or United or Chelsea he would not be coached the way he is now.

Basically here's what I'm saying: Barkley at this club at the moment is like giving donkeys strawberries - completely wasted. The talent he has should be showcased in a far more sophisticated set up than the work ethic environment it endures in now.

Yeah, it's not like Rooney moved on to a bigger club and got all his instinct trained out of him. Barkley has been given a different role by Koeman but he is playing more consistently and better than he has before. And he is still allowed to take risks.

Ok, he's not taking on a couple of players and smashing one in but let's be honest, how often did he really do that?

Players need to adapt and Ross is doing that. Going to Man City or Chelsea wouldn't help him

 

[bluestevon]

Yes mate, well done. It's just that you missed out the "small" matter of one other stat: scoring goals. He got 8 last season in practically 2/3rds of a season before he and the rest of them clocked off as an attacking unit.

And I ask you again, seeing as you didn't answer before, do you see a deterioration in the lads game from an attacking point of view or do you think he's managed to integrate the nuts and bolts stuff that Koeman wants in his game with the more buccaneering style that's brought him to the nation's attention prior to this season?

Barkley is on target to score about 6-7 goals this season in comparasion with 8 last season, he's on target to create about 9 goals this season - so overall his goal/assist return is gonna be about the same combined, then again 4 of his 8 goals last season came in a 5 game spell - which should he repeat a similar thing this seaosn would mean he would blow last seasons goals scored stats out the water, until seasons end we won't know.

After all he'd scored twice as many as last seaosn after 9 games this season, so as i say - partial season stats can be subjective.

do i see any deteriation in his attacking game, answer is simple really Dave, i see the lad developing one of the single most important traits which seperates players at the very top fromk those who end up with careers at the likes of stoke where they are lauded for showing up 1 game in 5

He is creating more, he is becoming more intelligent in when and where to do things on the pitch, and i couldhnt care one little bit if he does one or two dribbles a game less, as if thats what we rate the most then we should recall mcgeady and D3eulofeu and play them every game as they excel at that, we wouldnt win any game smind - but we'd win the most dribbles per game mini league.

 

[Stephenlloyd]

Agree with that apart from the final thought. There is no indication he'll be a better player.

Yes he needed to learn when to press and when to lay it off. But that type of player needs confidence to go out and use their own initiative. If you don't use Barkley that way then you may as well play Schneiderlin in his position and just have Gueye and mcCarthy as the Cms behind him. In fact, maybe come the summer that's the plan. I see one big name going for the cash and if it isn't Lukaku it'll possibly be Barkley.

Morgan can't offer was Ross can, because if he could. He wouldn't have spent all their careers as defensive/ball winning midfielder.

For me over the last 3 months, Ross is playing the most consistent football of his career.

Hopefully moving on from a andros Townsend type player. 1 brilliant games 6 bad ones

 

[davek]

In the good RS team (ugh! I hate typing that) Gerrard had Alonso and Mascherano screening the back 4. Lampard had the likes of Makelele and Essien in the team with him. When they played together for England it never worked, as neither tracked back. We simply don't have players of that calibre, so everyone has to put a shift in. Also, Barkley isn't on the level of Lampard and Gerrard.

I don't know, Gueye and Schneiderlin can give a solid base...maybe not the calibre of players you mention but a strong platform to let RB showcase his game.

 

[davek]

@davek

Don't have the stats for completed dribbles, but this is from squawka:
Total chances created
2014/2015 - 33
2015/2016 - 55
2016/2017 - 57

He's been more creative this season so far than the 2 complete season Dave mentioned. Fewer dribbles maybe, but more creative.

As I mentioned above, "chances created" like "key passes" = BS categories to me, for reasons already stated.

 

[hallamblue]

I don't know, Gueye and Schneiderlin can give a solid base...maybe not the calibre of players you mention but a strong platform to let RB showcase his game.

Hopefully they can, but Ross has to perform consistently for the rest of the season before that kind of faith can be placed in him.

 

[Neiler]

Gerrard and Lampard weren't tasked with tracking back and winding their necks in while on the ball. They played for teams that encouraged them to go out and dominate games.

He's gone backwards under Koeman overall. You say that he didn't develop until Koeman arrived. But his best season under Martinez was last season. How does that scan with what you believe?

There's something added to his game now in terms of being a lot more circumspect and not losing possession, but what s lost is something more valuable, IMO...and the opinion of others.

I would disagree on that Gerrard and Lampard comment mate. That said I don't really consider Lampard a central midfilder more an 8 and a half with drawn or a 10. He did have tackling and tracking back responsibilities though this area of his game is completely overlooked he largely played under coaches with rigid defensive systems. I think Lampard wouldn't have thrived in historical football he was lucky to have played in an era were football systems developed beyond 4-4-2 he wasn't very creative at all. I think your wrong on Gerrard I think he had a huge defensive responsibility throughout his career and was a very disciplined player, he played many posititions that required broad skill sets both creative and defensive he was a very balanced footballer both defensively and creatively.

Have to say I think your completely wrong, Barkley was told he was the best player in the world by Martinez and told to play were he liked the semi vs Utd last season typified that to me he was awful and a passenger, it was like having 10 men. He didn't influence games, the tempo and got a goal or assist in one of five games that looked good. Koeman has brought him along to the point now that he can influence every game, I don't think he is the finished article in the role he's playing and I expect him to reach a greater balance and effectiveness in his game but he is now progressing and developing for the first time since his breakthrough. I think He really suffered under Martinez and got exactly what he needed under Koeman I.e. A boot up the backside.

In terms of his best season it's what you value, a goal and assist in one in five game and being a passenger for the rest isn't good. Being effective in 38 games is better and the rest is good. Your also jumping the gun a bit there is just over a quater of the season to go yet.

It's an interesting point though when you look at the squad under Koeman who has progressed under his coaching from last season, Rom, Coleman certainly Ross for my money certainly.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Some fans are now supportive of Barkley because he works a bit harder and keeps it more simple. Heaven preserve us from those type of fans I say.

WTF would you want to neuter a player like this for in order to turn him into some hard pressing, lacking in adventure drone - they type that litters the PL?

He's basically been reconstructed from a talent that could transform a game to one who fits in with the hard work ethics that surrounds him. It's an absolute shame in football terms.

The thing is mate, no way has Barkley been neutered into a hard pressing drone. He's still got his old qualities and he's added the work rate and pressing to make him a more rounded midfielder. He was being shoe horned into a number 10 role which I realise now was wrong for him. He's never going to consistently give you the umpteen goals/assists that you need to provide as a luxury player. So he's going to get stick when he isn't delivering, which affects his confidence.

His game had to change, and now you are seeing a more rounded and, importantly, more confident and happier Ross than we've seen for 12 months. All we need now is to buy a true No 10 and between them and Lukaku we will have the firepower to push the top 4. The big question for me is who to bring in at number 10, not whether Ross's talents are being wasted.

 

[Titus Bramble]

As I mentioned above, "chances created" like "key passes" = BS categories to me, for reasons already stated.

Funny how it's always the stats that disprove your narrative you claim are irrelevant.

Ah well. What's for tea mate?

 

[hallamblue]

I would disagree on that Gerrard and Lampard comment mate. That said I don't really consider Lampard a central midfilder more an 8 and a half with drawn or a 10. He did have tackling and tracking back responsibilities though this area of his game is completely overlooked he largely played under coaches with rigid defensive systems. I think Lampard wouldn't have thrived in historical football he was lucky to have played in an era were football systems developed beyond 4-4-2 he wasn't very creative at all. I think your wrong on Gerrard I think he had a huge defensive responsibility throughout his career and was a very disciplined player, he played many posititions that required broad skill sets both creative and defensive he was a very balanced footballer both defensively and creatively.

Have to say I think your completely wrong, Barkley was told he was the best player in the world by Martinez and told to play were he liked. He didn't influence games, the tempo and got a goal or assist in one of five games that looked good. Koeman has brought him along to the point now that he can influence every game, I don't think he is the finished article in the role he's playing and I expect him to reach a greater balance and effectiveness in his game but he is now progressing and developing for the first time since his breakthrough. I think He really suffers under Martinez.

In terms of his best season it's what you value, a goal and assist in one in five game and being a passenger for the rest isn't good. Being effective in 38 games is better and the rest is good. Your also jumping the gun a bit there is just over a quater of the season to go yet.

I have to disagree that Gerrard was tactically disciplined. Whilst he single-handedly won the RS a lot of games and trophies it was through will, determination and ability more than any tactical discipline, and his lack of tactical discipline prevented him and Lampard playing well together, as he would have been the obvious one to sit, whilst Lampard carried more attacking threat.

 

[MikeH72]

He actually looks like he's enjoying his football now. The past two seasons he's looked like he'd rather be anywhere else than out on the pitch. Wonderful stuff, long may it continue