Ross Barkley

[davek]

Point on how stats can be used to prove/disprove anything you want to do.

So Alli is a far more creative player - showed by his dribbles etc

OR you can look at this stat

9th Ross Barkley 6
39th Delli Alli 3

Thats how both players rank this season on leading assists in the league - which is a decent measuring stick for 'creativity' i would guess - more so than dribbles are anyways

Key passes stats
5th Ross Barkley - 2.5 per game
47th Delli Alli - 1.3 per game

So again Barkley massively ahead in the number of key passes made per game (ones that lead to a goalscroing opportunity)

Pass completion %
Barkley 83%
Alli 79%

and again Barkley comes out ahead on the stats

Start quoting stats to back up your point of view mate, then you have to be prepared to accept stats that show your not correct



BTW just for completions sake

Barkleys stats last season
12th - Assists - 8 total
34th key passes - 1.5 per game
86% completion (cvoupled with the lower number of key passes shows he was playing more conservatively)

Yes mate, well done. It's just that you missed out the "small" matter of one other stat: scoring goals. He got 8 last season in practically 2/3rds of a season before he and the rest of them clocked off as an attacking unit.

And I ask you again, seeing as you didn't answer before, do you see a deterioration in the lads game from an attacking point of view or do you think he's managed to integrate the nuts and bolts stuff that Koeman wants in his game with the more buccaneering style that's brought him to the nation's attention prior to this season?

 

[MikeH72]

A real shame that we have people berating players for working hard and making up stats to try and make it seem like they're playing poorly. Thank god they're not coming inside Goodison.

 

[hallamblue]

Gerrard and Lampard weren't tasked with tracking back and winding their necks in while on the ball. They played for teams that encouraged them to go out and dominate games.

He's gone backwards under Koeman overall. You say that he didn't develop until Koeman arrived. But his best season under Martinez was last season. How does that scan with what you believe?

There's something added to his game now in terms of being a lot more circumspect and not losing possession, but what s lost is something more valuable, IMO...and the opinion of others.

In the good RS team (ugh! I hate typing that) Gerrard had Alonso and Mascherano screening the back 4. Lampard had the likes of Makelele and Essien in the team with him. When they played together for England it never worked, as neither tracked back. We simply don't have players of that calibre, so everyone has to put a shift in. Also, Barkley isn't on the level of Lampard and Gerrard.

 

[Titus Bramble]

Have u got the stats for completed dribbles?

His constant messi attempts which invariably ended in a dead end were the most frustrating aspect of his play.

Thankfully koeman has removed them from his game. Top managers do that sort of thing.

@davek

Don't have the stats for completed dribbles, but this is from squawka:
Total chances created
2014/2015 - 33
2015/2016 - 55
2016/2017 - 57

He's been more creative this season so far than the 2 complete season Dave mentioned. Fewer dribbles maybe, but more creative.

 

[davek]

I think there's a kernel of a point in what Jenas is saying, in terms of those numbers though - its all about the stat you pick, and whether dribbling is the measure you think is most important.

See the below for last 4 season (including this one) for key passes, chances created, assists and goals. As I said to you somewhere else, I agree that he needs to weigh in with another 4 or 5 this year, for it to really be great, productive year for him. But the below would indicate that lots of areas of his game are improving.

View attachment 35135

Tbf, "key passes" and "chances created" are two BS categories really aren't they? The only key pass I recognise is one that sets up a goal directly, otherwise you could be there all day describing any pass in a 6 pass move that starts in your own half as a key pass because it eventually ended up with the ball in the net. Same as the chances created one: you knock the ball in the box from a corner and someone gets their head first to it and it's deemed a chance created.

They are numb nuts categories designed to obfuscate as much as enlighten. At least a "number of dribbles" stat shows intent to attack and impose yourself on the opposition clear enough.

 

[Thomasc]

Proper LOL at Coco's bitch being owned again on here lol

 

[davek]

I think Barkley has become a far better all round player for those who watch him the full 90 minutes every game week in week out mate
I think Barkley has become a less impressive 'youtube' and match of the day player for those who want 2 minute highlight packages every other week and rate a player based upon that.

NOT having a go at you on that post btw, but having a go at the various pundits etc who frankly don't watch our games and dpon't have a clue

He does less of the crazy runs that first got him noticed by the pundits and media, yup no doubt he doesnt do as many, but he also doesnt run into blind alleys, attempt to dribble rather than the far better passing option etc, because he's maturing as a player, and learning when and when not to do it.

Has he maybe gone a little too far the other way - yup - wont argue that he has done, is that a natural thing to expect initially - ofc it is and it's blind or untrue to say that it isn't.

Will he be a far far better player overall having learnt what he's learning this season in terms of putting in hard work, improving his stamina, learnign to look for that pass rather than stick his head down and try the spectacular very time, yes and most would be open enough to see that.

Agree with that apart from the final thought. There is no indication he'll be a better player.

Yes he needed to learn when to press and when to lay it off. But that type of player needs confidence to go out and use their own initiative. If you don't use Barkley that way then you may as well play Schneiderlin in his position and just have Gueye and mcCarthy as the Cms behind him. In fact, maybe come the summer that's the plan. I see one big name going for the cash and if it isn't Lukaku it'll possibly be Barkley.

 

[MikeH72]

Proper LOL at Coco's bitch being owned again on here lol

Loling at the amount of wasted effort going on as well. People making sound points, that we all see with our own eyes and agree with, but all in vain and completely ignored.

 

[Amw79]

Tbf, "key passes" and "chances created" are two BS categories really aren't they? The only key pass I recognise is one that sets up a goal directly, otherwise you could be there all day describing any pass in a 6 pass move that starts in your own half as a key pass because it eventually ended up with the ball in the net. Same as the chances created one: you knock the ball in the box from a corner and someone gets their head first to it and it's deemed a chance created.

They are numb nuts categories designed to obfuscate as much as enlighten. At least a "number of dribbles" stat shows intent to attack and impose yourself on the opposition clear enough.

Ha ha dribbles are a better measure than creating chances?!?!

That's it. I'm out.

 

[tim cahill]

Just to hammer to the point home, here's the per game averages for the same metrics, over the 4 seasons, which is a better comparison, given the different numbers of games played per year. Rather than doing the mental gymnastics of working it out

View attachment 35138

Would be interesting to see what his tackling is like compared to previous seasons too. Also worth noting that he had a few penalties last season as well.

 

[MikeH72]

Ha ha dribbles are a better measure than creating chances?!?!

That's it. I'm out.

Good choice mert

 

[Neiler]

He's playing too conservatively for me.

He did need to learn to keep it simple at times, that's for sure. But I see a player that doesn't do what comes natural anymore and that is to get on the ball and try and make things happen. Certainly not as often as he used to. If he's learned a bit of discipline about pitch craft then great. But the stick has been bent back too far in the opposite direction for me and the way he's being coached is discouraging his creativity.

What I like is he influencing every game now as opposed to one in five, I think the maverick style has been tapered a bit but he is more involved in subtlety influencing the game, previously he could be a passenger when he couldn't beat 10 players or score from 30 yards. I think to be fair his progression has been short lived I've only seen an improvement since Hull away onwards so we are only talking 8 games, I'm also very disappointed to see an article by him today saying he's in top form. He's playing at about 70% of what his potential is, so a self pat on the back is dissapointing. He's three years behind in his development for me, his next step is calibrating his game between discipline and effectness Vs Creativity And getting the consistent maximum from those facets of his game. He has a way to go yet, he should be hitting Gerrard and Lampard standards.

In mitigation to the above though he's done better with better players around him.

 

[Dyo1878]

Some fans are now supportive of Barkley because he works a bit harder and keeps it more simple. Heaven preserve us from those type of fans I say.

WTF would you want to neuter a player like this for in order to turn him into some hard pressing, lacking in adventure drone - they type that litters the PL?

He's basically been reconstructed from a talent that could transform a game to one who fits in with the hard work ethics that surrounds him. It's an absolute shame in football terms.

Mate you chat utter wham. Id prefer to use a harsher word on that one but its not allowed.

I've criticised Barkley in the past for playing poor and looking like he was never going to progress.

It's been clear the last 2 months or so, that he has completely improved as a player.

He affects every single game more or less now. Positively and not negatively.

I understand from reading on here that you don't attend games, rubbish you spout like this, clearly confirms that.

 

[degsy]

Yes mate, well done. It's just that you missed out the "small" matter of one other stat: scoring goals. He got 8 last season in practically 2/3rds of a season before he and the rest of them clocked off as an attacking unit.

And I ask you again, seeing as you didn't answer before, do you see a deterioration in the lads game from an attacking point of view or do you think he's managed to integrate the nuts and bolts stuff that Koeman wants in his game with the more buccaneering style that's brought him to the nation's attention prior to this season?

Barkley's always had the Instinctive skill, as witnessed by the goal Vs Newcastle and he's always had a shot in both feet
It would seem that he is now 'learning', albeit slowly, the bread and butter stuff, by 'rote' as it were...tip of tongue between the lips, finger following the words. The 'percentage' stuff...9 times out of 10 in circumstance 'xxxx' you always do 'yyyy'
The goals will suffer a bit until the Rote/Percentage soaks in and it too becomes instinctive...if it ever does.
Then in circumstance 'xxxx' everybody will expect 'yyyy' and the Barkley v3.0 will do 'zzzz' and blow everybody's minds
...or not.

 

[davek]

Personally I think it's more that previous managers haven't helped Ross with his game management at all and haven't known how to handle him. Moyes didn't trust him defensively and Martinez didn't appear to let him get involved in his own half either. As a result Ross always seemed to be on the edge of games, and it was frustrating to all, that he never took the game to the opposition and we just saw him in flashes of brilliance...with everyone wondering why he wasn't more involved.

What Koeman has done is challenge Ross to get more involved and then coach him in how to achieve this. For me it's almost like an army drill sergeant, he stripped him back to basics and publicly challenged his mentality. What we see now is a completely different player. He's now far more involved in games than he ever has been before and it seems with each game his influence is growing. We struggled against a good Spurs side - in my view cos of barry's inclusion and an ineffective system - but Barkley was a shining light, even in difficult circumstances.

The Bournemouth game showed his confidence is there, with that celebration before he scored and some of his play in that game would have been lauded in the media if it had have come from a media darling like ali or kane.

Under Koeman it seems that Ross is finally maturing as a footballer, and he's learning when and where to dribble, pass, shoot etc. With taking on more responsibility in games as well, with being asked to work back and close down etc. he's investing a lot more in determining the outcome of games IMO and I think we'll really start to see him shine. Especially with the players behind him in midfield. For every Hazard there's a Kante, Zidane a Makele or Deschamps, Inesta a Busquets.

Everton don't get lots of coverage in the media, we haven't had a lot of high profile players over the years and a lot of ex-players are still in the game and not behind the mic. We don't get loads of coverage because of this, and players like Barkley, Lukaku etc. don't get anywhere near the credit they deserve. That will change though as the club do more to promote themselves and with big Stories like the stadium etc.

I think that's just attributing everything that's happened with Barkely since Koeman arrived as being completely good and what he was as a player before then was just a peripheral figure. That beggars belief.

He looks shackled to me. As said, I'm not going to be churlish about it and say that Koeman isn't right that Barkley needed to simplify at times, he did. But for me it's also been adverse because the player looks whipped. He might well be fitting in with the orthodoxy in terms of the way this manager wants to operate and he goes along with that for an easy life. But that isn't the same as saying he's being used properly or to the max.

If he went to City or United or Chelsea he would not be coached the way he is now.

Basically here's what I'm saying: Barkley at this club at the moment is like giving donkeys strawberries - completely wasted. The talent he has should be showcased in a far more sophisticated set up than the work ethic environment it endures in now.