Goals on Sunday

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ianefc said:
There is no way that Martinez was better than Moyes, whether it be his average league finish, his highest league finish, his signings overall, his starting position to ending position, how he did with the amout of money annually afforded, combining 'high' league positions and cup runs in the same season and more progress in cups.

Martinez basically added a polished attack whilst Moyes' defence was sensational for him in season 1 (16 clean sheets) the as with Wigan it collapsed.

I genuinely feel that strongly about it, I see it as out of order to label Martinez and Moyes in the same catergory, like you said, they were both 'Ok'
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doesn't answer what I said though Ian
 

Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
First season was good

We played some good football for a while there

Winning at Old Trafford

Out playing Arsenal at Goodison

Two semi finals and a Quarter Final

More emphasis put on youth development than under Moyes, with more younger players getting a chance in first team action

Signed Lukaku

Gave John Stones a platform whereby we could sell him for an arse load of money

Had much more ambition than Moyes, always looked up rather than down

Brought Howard Kendall back into the fold whilst there was still time and showed a genuine respect for the clubs history and standing


Of course the negatives eventually outweighed the positives and it was quite right that he got sacked, but I'm not going to pretend he didn't do good things while he was here. I don't hate Martinez in any way, although I'm delighted he no longer manages us because he was taking us in only one direction and it wasn't upward
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Spot on.

Which is why it was ridiculous that the board didn't pull the trigger on him earlier. We could have had a proper chance at that FA Cup, and a good man wouldn't have been hung out to dry.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
First season was good

We played some good football for a while there

Winning at Old Trafford

Out playing Arsenal at Goodison

Two semi finals and a Quarter Final

More emphasis put on youth development than under Moyes, with more younger players getting a chance in first team action

Signed Lukaku

Gave John Stones a platform whereby we could sell him for an arse load of money

Had much more ambition than Moyes, always looked up rather than down

Brought Howard Kendall back into the fold whilst there was still time and showed a genuine respect for the clubs history and standing


Of course the negatives eventually outweighed the positives and it was quite right that he got sacked, but I'm not going to pretend he didn't do good things while he was here. I don't hate Martinez in any way, although I'm delighted he no longer manages us because he was taking us in only one direction and it wasn't upward
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How long did that take?
 
Mountfield1985 said:
Spot on.

Which is why it was ridiculous that the board didn't pull the trigger on him earlier. We could have had a proper chance at that FA Cup, and a good man wouldn't have been hung out to dry.
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He should have gone after the Derby at Anfield really, with Unsworth in from the Semi Final onwards

We might actually have won it then
 


ianefc said:
And judging by Koemans clearout after just six months, that also proves that Martinez picked Everton up in a better place 6th) than Koeman did (11th although 13th when sacked, which was one of the worse managerial performances I've ever seen)

As said, I don't need to overemphasise where Moyes left us, because Martinez clearly agreed by using 8 of those players regularly. He also bought players that in no way improved the current holders of their positions.
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To say taking a team from 6th to 11th (via 5th) being 1 of the worst managerial performances you've ever seen is hyperbole, especially when Moyes managed 7th to 18th during his own spell in charge, and 1st to 6th with united, and Ranieri is currently overseeing 1st to 16th. So once again, I would call that an overemphasis.

You also make the assessment that Martinez agreed that Moyes left us strong by using 8 of those players, to somehow prove my point wrong, when my point wasn't that he there wasn't a core of a decent team there, but that it was nearing the end of a cycle and would need replacing in the near future. I said as much in a few of my points, and that I believed he took the gamble on spending 2 years worth of budget on Lukaku to compliment what was already there, under the impression the spine of the team would make do in the meantime.

Unfortunately the same spine, and it was the same players as you rightly point out, let him down badly over the next 2 years, mixed with the younger players he introduced lacking in confidence.

As for Koeman replacing them all, again, I keep having to go over the same points, Koeman was brought in with an entirely different set of limitations to that which Martinez was managing under. A new billionaire owner, the ability to spend vast sums of money on established players and discard the older players who were no longer deemed good enough is a luxury he has knowing the weight of the financial muscle he has behind him. He is also able to call upon younger players that Martinez championed (Davies, Holgate).

We are never going to agree on this, so it seems pointless to continue. The frustrating thing is, I'm not trying to convince anyone Martinez was better than Koeman is or Moyes was. I'm just trying to say he doesn't deserve as much derision as he gets and there should be more reason applied to his time in charge. Rightly or wrongly, he helped shape where we are now.
 
Mikey_Fitzgerald said:
Yes he bloody was

He was utterly awful and better players left the club because they were stuck behind him in the queue

He was terrible outside of maybe one game against one of the worst Newcastle sides in memory, he was directly responsible for us losing in Kiev and he also stunted the progression of players in our youth set up who had to wait behind the washed up never was

He was awful, absolutely bloody awful

Him coming here was "jobs for the boys" in it's most blatant form

Robles, Kone (Before his injury) and McCarthy at least could hold their own in the squad, and in McCarthy's case even excel, but the fact Alcaraz was on Everton's books was a genuine disgrace and one we must never forget

I'm happy to give Martinez credit for the good things he did here, because there definitely were things, but one thing I will not do is let him off the hook for giving Alcaraz a contract. He was already injured when we signed him, and Martinez knew that, but he still signed him and essentially paid him to sit on a physio's table. Utterly disgusting and I can't believe more isn't made of it. The Everton manager signed a player he knew was knackered and gave him a cushy deal to get fixed up on the clubs dime. It makes me sick

Niasse was Martinez making a bad signing on a player he had no prior experience of working with, that could happen to any manager, but Alcaraz was him making a conscious decision to put and despicably crap player on the books as a favour and it was done solely to the clubs detriment
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You are really using Duffy as the player who he stood in the way of? Because other than him, all other players were 1st choice above him, and Alcaraz was back up, nothing more. Had Duffy stayed, he would also have been back up, and as a younger player in the key period of his career, surely leaving to be 1st choice in another team is more beneficial?

Regardless, I maintain that Alcaraz, Kone, Joel and McCarthy were exactly what they were intended to be. Players Martinez knew to help the transition with the dressing room. Alcaraz was a free transfer, and was signed as back up to help fill the squad where money could be better used elsewhere.

I would argue that Alcaraz was a much better player than any of the following... Anthony Gardner, Phillipe Senderos, Eddy Bosnar, Ibrahim Said, Li Wei Feng... All of whom were signed under similar circumstances under Moyes. The joys of a tight budget.

Also, you claim that he only had 1 good game, and listed a different game to the clean sheet debut game, which he deputised with another young debutant, away a at a difficult Stoke.

Blame him all you want for Kiev, it won't change that he was nowhere near as bad a signing as you suggest, and was in no way more culpable than the rest of the team on the day.

Pity we didn't sign him from Scotland, you'd be chairman of his fanclub now.
 
Kever10 said:
To say taking a team from 6th to 11th (via 5th) being 1 of the worst managerial performances you've ever seen is hyperbole, especially when Moyes managed 7th to 18th during his own spell in charge, and 1st to 6th with united, and Ranieri is currently overseeing 1st to 16th. So once again, I would call that an overemphasis.

You also make the assessment that Martinez agreed that Moyes left us strong by using 8 of those players, to somehow prove my point wrong, when my point wasn't that he there wasn't a core of a decent team there, but that it was nearing the end of a cycle and would need replacing in the near future. I said as much in a few of my points, and that I believed he took the gamble on spending 2 years worth of budget on Lukaku to compliment what was already there, under the impression the spine of the team would make do in the meantime.

Unfortunately the same spine, and it was the same players as you rightly point out, let him down badly over the next 2 years, mixed with the younger players he introduced lacking in confidence.

As for Koeman replacing them all, again, I keep having to go over the same points, Koeman was brought in with an entirely different set of limitations to that which Martinez was managing under. A new billionaire owner, the ability to spend vast sums of money on established players and discard the older players who were no longer deemed good enough is a luxury he has knowing the weight of the financial muscle he has behind him. He is also able to call upon younger players that Martinez championed (Davies, Holgate).

We are never going to agree on this, so it seems pointless to continue. The frustrating thing is, I'm not trying to convince anyone Martinez was better than Koeman is or Moyes was. I'm just trying to say he doesn't deserve as much derision as he gets and there should be more reason applied to his time in charge. Rightly or wrongly, he helped shape where we are now.
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Both examples you’ve used there are due to the manager performing absolute miracles with awful teams the previous season. Martinez does not have that excuse. Martinez took a side with 8 consecutive Top-8 finishes, into 2 consecutive 11th placed finishes. It was sustained regression.

You make some good points though, and I do think a lot of the good he did at the club gets forgotten about due to just how sour it turned by the final few months. Let’s hope the likes of Lukaku can achieve something here, and we can look back at Martinez’ time as an important time of transition.
 

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