Goals on Sunday

[ianefc]

David Moyes solid foundations included a retiring Neville, Gueye (the other 1), Kennedy, Duffy, Junior, Mucha, Vellios, Anichebe, Jelavic, Naismith, Distin, Howard, Pienaar, Osman, Hibbert, Oviedo, Gibson, McAleny and Browning.

All but 2 of them are now gone, and the other 2 have barely played a game between them, and most on here thought the majority of them were useless, or at best, finished within 2 years of him leaving.

Our most saleable assets were Fellaini who we essentially sold to buy Lukaku, and then Stones, who despite never playing under Moyes, developed to become an international and went for £40m last summer.

The rest of the solid foundation is Jagielka Baines, Coleman, Barkley and Mirallas.

Only 3 of them most would still consider regulars, and 1 of them saw very little action under the Moyes regime, again, much to the annoyance of the majority on here.

I suppose it's just the way different people see it really isn't it.

Martinez only purchased and added 3 regular starters to that team in season 1 Lukaku, Barry and McCarthy, who all did great. Whatever or whoever else made the biggest contributions were left by Moyes. They were his foundations.

The back 5 were all left by Moyes, that back 5 played the majority of games and if one of the CB's went down it was Stones or Alcaraz who came in. That back 5 got 16 clean sheets in that 38 games season, that was a Moyes drilled back 5, when it disbanded Martinez didn't get 16 clean sheets in his next 75 league games, is that a coincidence?

The other players Martinez added to what he was left by Moyes were Alcaraz, Kone, Mcgeady, Deulofeu and Robles.

So whichever way you dress it up, of the 11 starting players a large chunk of the time it was made up by 8 Moyes players and 3 Martinez players. They're the facts.

You talking about us losing/selling the likes of Anichebe or Duffy or Velios seems like a massive reach to get Martinez some brownie points.

 

[Kever10]

Martinez only purchased and added 3 regular starters to that team in season 1 Lukaku, Barry and McCarthy, who all did great. Whatever or whoever else made the biggest contributions were left by Moyes. They were his foundations.

The back 5 were all left by Moyes, that back 5 played the majority of games and if one of the CB's went down it was Stones or Alcaraz who came in. That back 5 got 16 clean sheets in that 38 games season, that was a Moyes drilled back 5, when it disbanded Martinez didn't get 16 clean sheets in his next 75 league games, is that a coincidence?

The other players Martinez added to what he was left by Moyes were Alcaraz, Kone, Mcgeady, Deulofeu and Robles.

So whichever way you dress it up, of the 11 starting players a large chunk of the time it was made up by 8 Moyes players and 3 Martinez players. They're the facts.

You talking about us losing/selling the likes of Anichebe or Duffy or Velios seems like a massive reach to get Martinez some brownie points.

Not at all. I'm saying that some people over emphasise this solid foundation that Moyes left, and give Martinez no credit for that 1st season.

Martinez got those players playing a different style of football, complimented what was there with his signings, and achieved our highest premier league points tally with the squad he had. He didn't come in half way through the season, so all this nonsense that it only achieved because of Moyes is just revisionist to take away his initial achievement.

It also adds to the point I made the other day, that he had 1 he'll of a building job to do.

Whoever took over that squad, or even if Moyes had stayed in charge, the squad was nearing the end of its cycle and would've needed a massive overhaul over the next few years. This is not a criticism of Moyes, to the contrary. I actually feel Moyes was left in a very similar situation with the squad left to him by Alex Ferguson. Ferguson knew that squad needed a rebuild, even after winning the League in his last season, and that played a big part in stepping down when he did. Go out on top as they say.

The difference being, we have always been limited in our budget, unlike now, that was a major factor in why Martinez was chosen at the time. He wasn't chosen to take us to the Champions League. That was his own inflated positivity and ambition that led him to say that, and Kenwright loved the idea of it. We all did, even though we thought it was pie in the sky.

One of the worst things Martinez could've done, is achieve what he did in the 1st year, and make everyone believe it was already there. It wasn't. The other was bring in Samuel Eto'o as the so called trusted senior pro for people to look up to, and instead, he turned the dressing room toxic, as he has done at many of the other teams he's played for, and turned a lot of the players against him. That that led to his inevitable downfall.

You point to some of Martinez lesser signings, Alcaraz, Kone, Joel, etc, who were relatively cheap gambles, players he trusted, a tactic employed by virtually every manager ever to get the dressing room on side. Others like McGeady, Deulofeu, Besic, Cleverly were again, relatively cheap gambles and were all signed for less than the amount we sold Naismith for. Did they all work out? No, but that's the risk you take.

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

He's not going to go on TV and draw attention to his flaws and weaknesses is he? What manager would do that?

No, he's going to go on and mention the positives from his run here, of which there were some

 

[Aberblue]

Not at all. I'm saying that some people over emphasise this solid foundation that Moyes left, and give Martinez no credit for that 1st season.

Martinez got those players playing a different style of football, complimented what was there with his signings, and achieved our highest premier league points tally with the squad he had. He didn't come in half way through the season, so all this nonsense that it only achieved because of Moyes is just revisionist to take away his initial achievement.

It also adds to the point I made the other day, that he had 1 he'll of a building job to do.

Whoever took over that squad, or even if Moyes had stayed in charge, the squad was nearing the end of its cycle and would've needed a massive overhaul over the next few years. This is not a criticism of Moyes, to the contrary. I actually feel Moyes was left in a very similar situation with the squad left to him by Alex Ferguson. Ferguson knew that squad needed a rebuild, even after winning the League in his last season, and that played a big part in stepping down when he did. Go out on top as they say.

The difference being, we have always been limited in our budget, unlike now, that was a major factor in why Martinez was chosen at the time. He wasn't chosen to take us to the Champions League. That was his own inflated positivity and ambition that led him to say that, and Kenwright loved the idea of it. We all did, even though we thought it was pie in the sky.

One of the worst things Martinez could've done, is achieve what he did in the 1st year, and make everyone believe it was already there. It wasn't. The other was bring in Samuel Eto'o as the so called trusted senior pro for people to look up to, and instead, he turned the dressing room toxic, as he has done at many of the other teams he's played for, and turned a lot of the players against him. That that led to his inevitable downfall.

You point to some of Martinez lesser signings, Alcaraz, Kone, Joel, etc, who were relatively cheap gambles, players he trusted, a tactic employed by virtually every manager ever to get the dressing room on side. Others like McGeady, Deulofeu, Besic, Cleverly were again, relatively cheap gambles and were all signed for less than the amount we sold Naismith for. Did they all work out? No, but that's the risk you take.

We can all have our views on Martinez's transfer dealings. I'd say they were mostly poor, while some may disagree.

What is unarguably a major fault of Martinez's, though, is the very noticeable lack of fitness in the squad. This manifested itself in our constant stream of minor injuries which was a feature of Martinez's time here, and the very noticeable tendency of all too many players to wilt visibly during games. Remember how often you'd see Deulofeu or Lukaku - young players in their early 20s - rest with their hands on their knees, gasping for breath, after making a run. Remember how often we'd concede late goals. Remember how we collapsed against Arsenal, throwing away a 2 goal lead with ten minutes left. Martinez blamed the World Cup, as if we were the only team to have players involved.

Oh, one other thing - if he trusted the likes of Kone and Alcaraz, doesn't that say something about his judgement?

 

[Kever10]

We can all have our views on Martinez's transfer dealings. I'd say they were mostly poor, while some may disagree.

What is unarguably a major fault of Martinez's, though, is the very noticeable lack of fitness in the squad. This manifested itself in our constant stream of minor injuries which was a feature of Martinez's time here, and the very noticeable tendency of all too many players to wilt visibly during games. Remember how often you'd see Deulofeu or Lukaku - young players in their early 20s - rest with their hands on their knees, gasping for breath, after making a run. Remember how often we'd concede late goals. Remember how we collapsed against Arsenal, throwing away a 2 goal lead with ten minutes left. Martinez blamed the World Cup, as if we were the only team to have players involved.

Oh, one other thing - if he trusted the likes of Kone and Alcaraz, doesn't that say something about his judgement?

Alcaraz was nowhere near as bad as people have made out. There were a few games when he came in and handled himself well, and it was actually he who partnered Stones in his 1st start, a cleansheet away to Stoke. He was no world beater, but I think a lot of the stick he gets is again because of who he was signed from and who he was signed by. He was only ever signed as back up, but people make out he was a marquee signing by the stick they level at him.

Kone, I've said before, and I'll say again, he was signed as an option up front, for less than the amount we sold Naismith, Anichebe and Jelavic, after a decent 1st season in the prem, in which he had outscored all 3 of them for a relegated side. I've seen people level that they were all tap ins, which isn't actually fair if you care to watch them back, and even so, they all count, so why that matters is beyond me.

Unfortunately, he too suffered for being signed from Wigan, along with Joel, who is only now getting over that stigma. And then he had the misfortune to suffer a career threatening injury and miss over a year, in which time the team played with a confidence that allowed all the players to express themselves and enjoy their football. By the time he returned, the team was struggling for confidence and he was the butt of a lot of jokes.

As far as the fitness goes, maybe the players were unfit. I didn't see them in their day to day lives. But I do know that throughout Martinez reign, we also scored a lot of late goals which contradicts a lot of those points. Fitness, confidence, motivation and form are all inextricably linked, and so I would argue that to say the players were just unfit is too simplistic a reason to explain the downturn over the course of the season. We also played a lot more games in seasons 2 and 3 than we did in both his 1st year and this current season, by way of progressing further in the cup competitions.

And to blame niggling injuries on the general and collective fitness of the squad belies the similar amount of similar injuries suffered under Moyes fitness intensive regime.

 

[ianefc]

Not at all. I'm saying that some people over emphasise this solid foundation that Moyes left, and give Martinez no credit for that 1st season.

Martinez got those players playing a different style of football, complimented what was there with his signings, and achieved our highest premier league points tally with the squad he had. He didn't come in half way through the season, so all this nonsense that it only achieved because of Moyes is just revisionist to take away his initial achievement.

It also adds to the point I made the other day, that he had 1 he'll of a building job to do.

Whoever took over that squad, or even if Moyes had stayed in charge, the squad was nearing the end of its cycle and would've needed a massive overhaul over the next few years. This is not a criticism of Moyes, to the contrary. I actually feel Moyes was left in a very similar situation with the squad left to him by Alex Ferguson. Ferguson knew that squad needed a rebuild, even after winning the League in his last season, and that played a big part in stepping down when he did. Go out on top as they say.

The difference being, we have always been limited in our budget, unlike now, that was a major factor in why Martinez was chosen at the time. He wasn't chosen to take us to the Champions League. That was his own inflated positivity and ambition that led him to say that, and Kenwright loved the idea of it. We all did, even though we thought it was pie in the sky.

One of the worst things Martinez could've done, is achieve what he did in the 1st year, and make everyone believe it was already there. It wasn't. The other was bring in Samuel Eto'o as the so called trusted senior pro for people to look up to, and instead, he turned the dressing room toxic, as he has done at many of the other teams he's played for, and turned a lot of the players against him. That that led to his inevitable downfall.

You point to some of Martinez lesser signings, Alcaraz, Kone, Joel, etc, who were relatively cheap gambles, players he trusted, a tactic employed by virtually every manager ever to get the dressing room on side. Others like McGeady, Deulofeu, Besic, Cleverly were again, relatively cheap gambles and were all signed for less than the amount we sold Naismith for. Did they all work out? No, but that's the risk you take.

Martinez added a better attacking style to Everton, no doubt, although Moyes' attack is nowhere near as bad as made out and is often a used as a way to overemphasise the positive side of Martinez management.

But a quick look at Martinez defensive record at the top level proves he's not good enough. The stats are there to be seen.

And judging by Koemans clearout after just six months, that also proves that Martinez picked Everton up in a better place 6th) than Koeman did (11th although 13th when sacked, which was one of the worse managerial performances I've ever seen)

As said, I don't need to overemphasise where Moyes left us, because Martinez clearly agreed by using 8 of those players regularly. He also bought players that in no way improved the current holders of their positions.

 

[MikeH72]

One year ago today. Darkness my old friend...

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Alcaraz was nowhere near as bad as people have made out. There were a few games when he came in and handled himself well, and it was actually he who partnered Stones in his 1st start, a cleansheet away to Stoke. He was no world beater, but I think a lot of the stick he gets is again because of who he was signed from and who he was signed by. He was only ever signed as back up, but people make out he was a marquee signing by the stick they level at him.

Yes he bloody was

He was utterly awful and better players left the club because they were stuck behind him in the queue

He was terrible outside of maybe one game against one of the worst Newcastle sides in memory, he was directly responsible for us losing in Kiev and he also stunted the progression of players in our youth set up who had to wait behind the washed up never was

He was awful, absolutely bloody awful

Him coming here was "jobs for the boys" in it's most blatant form

Robles, Kone (Before his injury) and McCarthy at least could hold their own in the squad, and in McCarthy's case even excel, but the fact Alcaraz was on Everton's books was a genuine disgrace and one we must never forget

I'm happy to give Martinez credit for the good things he did here, because there definitely were things, but one thing I will not do is let him off the hook for giving Alcaraz a contract. He was already injured when we signed him, and Martinez knew that, but he still signed him and essentially paid him to sit on a physio's table. Utterly disgusting and I can't believe more isn't made of it. The Everton manager signed a player he knew was knackered and gave him a cushy deal to get fixed up on the clubs dime. It makes me sick

Niasse was Martinez making a bad signing on a player he had no prior experience of working with, that could happen to any manager, but Alcaraz was him making a conscious decision to put and despicably crap player on the books as a favour and it was done solely to the clubs detriment

 

[ijjysmith]

One year ago today. Darkness my old friend...

That makes me feel physically sick.

 

[MikeH72]

That makes me feel physically sick.

Just consider how different everything could be now.

 

[wilfjacko]

Alcaraz was nowhere near as bad as people have made out. There were a few games when he came in and handled himself well, and it was actually he who partnered Stones in his 1st start, a cleansheet away to Stoke. He was no world beater, but I think a lot of the stick he gets is again because of who he was signed from and who he was signed by. He was only ever signed as back up, but people make out he was a marquee signing by the stick they level at him.

Kone, I've said before, and I'll say again, he was signed as an option up front, for less than the amount we sold Naismith, Anichebe and Jelavic, after a decent 1st season in the prem, in which he had outscored all 3 of them for a relegated side. I've seen people level that they were all tap ins, which isn't actually fair if you care to watch them back, and even so, they all count, so why that matters is beyond me.

Unfortunately, he too suffered for being signed from Wigan, along with Joel, who is only now getting over that stigma. And then he had the misfortune to suffer a career threatening injury and miss over a year, in which time the team played with a confidence that allowed all the players to express themselves and enjoy their football. By the time he returned, the team was struggling for confidence and he was the butt of a lot of jokes.

As far as the fitness goes, maybe the players were unfit. I didn't see them in their day to day lives. But I do know that throughout Martinez reign, we also scored a lot of late goals which contradicts a lot of those points. Fitness, confidence, motivation and form are all inextricably linked, and so I would argue that to say the players were just unfit is too simplistic a reason to explain the downturn over the course of the season. We also played a lot more games in seasons 2 and 3 than we did in both his 1st year and this current season, by way of progressing further in the cup competitions.

And to blame niggling injuries on the general and collective fitness of the squad belies the similar amount of similar injuries suffered under Moyes fitness intensive regime.

Alcatraz was/is a complete and utter useless yarddog

 

[Brendan Janus]

Martines was soon to be sectioned !!

 

[Mikey_Fitzgerald]

Alcatraz was/is a complete and utter useless yarddog

Is the correct answer

 

[ianefc]

@mikeh72 dont you dare make @ijjysmith physically sick.

 

[ijjysmith]

Yes he bloody was

He was utterly awful and better players left the club because they were stuck behind him in the queue

He was terrible outside of maybe one game against one of the worst Newcastle sides in memory, he was directly responsible for us losing in Kiev and he also stunted the progression of players in our youth set up who had to wait behind the washed up never was

He was awful, absolutely bloody awful

Him coming here was "jobs for the boys" in it's most blatant form

Robles, Kone (Before his injury) and McCarthy at least could hold their own in the squad, and in McCarthy's case even excel, but the fact Alcaraz was on Everton's books was a genuine disgrace and one we must never forget

I'm happy to give Martinez credit for the good things he did here, because there definitely were things, but one thing I will not do is let him off the hook for giving Alcaraz a contract. He was already injured when we signed him, and Martinez knew that, but he still signed him and essentially paid him to sit on a physio's table. Utterly disgusting and I can't believe more isn't made of it. The Everton manager signed a player he knew was knackered and gave him a cushy deal to get fixed up on the clubs dime. It makes me sick

Niasse was Martinez making a bad signing on a player he had no prior experience of working with, that could happen to any manager, but Alcaraz was him making a conscious decision to put and despicably crap player on the books as a favour and it was done solely to the clubs detriment

You've done excellently there to write all that and not mention Duffy! I'm so proud!

In other news, we'd have lost in Kiev anyway, but he didn't exactly help did he the massive bag of toilet.