What would be seen as a successful season?

[davek]

You reel this one out regularly. And every time someone points out that that was in the first season when the defence was basically Moyes creation and he hadn't destroyed it. Once he had had time to put his mark on the squad the team was a proven disaster that would get nowhere near top 4. All the better players had aged and the ones he brought in, by-and-large were woeful (Lukaku and Barry excepted).

Do you genuinely believe this or are you just a bored internet warrior?

As soon as that is trotted ut I know someone doesn't have their thinking cap on or are just too bitter to acknowledge the following: Martinez may have been bequeathed the defensive personnel from Moyes, but he asked that defence to play in a completely different way. They may as well have been different players given the polar opposite football they were tasked with playing.

The first season was Martinez's warts an' all...just as the next two were.

 

[GlosBlue]

As soon as that is trotted ut I know someone doesn't have their thinking cap on or are just too bitter to acknowledge the following: Martinez may have been bequeathed the defensive personnel from Moyes, but he asked that defence to play in a completely different way. They may as well have been different players given the polar opposite football they were tasked with playing.

The first season was Martinez's warts an' all...just as the next two were.

I'm sure they still had some of the things that Moyes taught them knocking about in their heads and didn't just drop it all immediately. For example, what to do when a ball goes into the box in the air!

How do you explain why that same defence was so bad in season 2 and 3 then?!

 

[roydo]

As soon as that is trotted ut I know someone doesn't have their thinking cap on or are just too bitter to acknowledge the following: Martinez may have been bequeathed the defensive personnel from Moyes, but he asked that defence to play in a completely different way. They may as well have been different players given the polar opposite football they were tasked with playing.

The first season was Martinez's warts an' all...just as the next two were.

I'm sure they still had some of the things that Moyes taught them knocking about in their heads and didn't just drop it all immediately. For example, what to do when a ball goes into the box in the air!

How do you explain why that same defence was so bad in season 2 and 3 then?!

Whatever.

Thread is about this season, not the last 3.

Ta.

 

[upthetoffees]

No cheese option?

 

[davek]

I'm sure they still had some of the things that Moyes taught them knocking about in their heads and didn't just drop it all immediately. For example, what to do when a ball goes into the box in the air!

How do you explain why that same defence was so bad in season 2 and 3 then?!

They were hopeless at that under Moyes too. Most wopuld agree with that. We had Distin who could do a job in that respect, the rest were like statues, including Howard...especially Howard.

It failed before season's two and three - that should have been Martinez's cue to do some pruning but he didn't and he stayed failthful to players who werent good enough on the ball to manage when the opposition pressed.

 

[GlosBlue]

Whatever.

Thread is about this season, not the last 3.

Ta.

Sorry. I always bite! No more I promise!

With regards to this season, given the massive transition required after the demolition job done by the previous incumbent, I would say top 7 would be a success and one on which I would expect us to build next season.

 

[Jebus_lives]

As soon as that is trotted ut I know someone doesn't have their thinking cap on or are just too bitter to acknowledge the following: Martinez may have been bequeathed the defensive personnel from Moyes, but he asked that defence to play in a completely different way. They may as well have been different players given the polar opposite football they were tasked with playing.

The first season was Martinez's warts an' all...just as the next two were.

Crying at this.

In other news, We were steadily mediocre under Moyes, we got progressively worse under Martinez. Europe would be an improvement and a good platform to move on from next season.

 

[Legate]

Successful season?- Under 23s continue to beat all before them. First team...Europe of some sorts...

 

[Famous_Seamus]

Confusing because the title says successful season but the poll says "decent season." Of course there are degrees to either.

What I would consider a success is if we don't get European football, how are the youngsters performing/contributing down the stretch? If say we finish 7th but do so with the young lads contributing, plus Barkley looking more consistent, then I would be happy as its a sign of better things to come.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Expectations were crazily heightened after Martinez's first season to such a point that when we fell out of the top 8 in the autumn of the following season the first Martinez Out polls were being posted on here - thats how mad things had gotten out of whack.

Those expectations continued the following season and saw Martinez out the door. But they seem to have been tempered now for a new manager. All of a sudden some people are suggesting a spell for a couple of seasons in the top half or around 7th place will be ok. So expectations have have been diluted. That doesn't make sense to me. If this feller is 'an improvement' then we should be expecting him to at least get to where the previous two managers have got to - managers who didn't have half the resources this one will have at his disposal. You can also see that attitude being encouraged by the likes of Ratcliffe today trying to elevate the "enormity" of the task of cracking into the 'Sensational Six' teams above us. That is utter BS.

.
In fairness mate, your original post I replied to referred to a comfortable top 10 finish and nobody would kick up a fuss. There is a huge difference between finishing 10th and finishing 7th, possibly on the coat tails of those above. Plus your statement isn't backed up by the above poll, 92% of whom see success as finishing in a European spot.

Also, nobody said they'd be happy with 7th for a couple of seasons. The thread and poll relate to THIS season only. Given that 8% want UCL, and 84% wanted EL qualification this season, I doubt very much they would settle for 7th place next season which wouldn't even guarantee European football. I suspect that if we had a separate poll, over 90% would expect us to be challenging for champions league.

And why is it BS to say that it will be a challenge to out perform the "sensational six" as you call it. All of them have better squads than we do at the moment, they have more financial resources than we do at the moment, and they all have top managers in charge, in fact some of the best managers in world football. If Koeman can break into that next season, never mind this, then he's doing very well indeed. He is getting well paid for it mind you.

 

[Steve0106]

Definement of success is crucial. In the purest of terms getting beaten by Leicester in the FA Cup stripped away any significant chance of success this season. Progress, however is a different animal. The make up of the squad now is a lot more balanced in terms of youth and experience that at any point in the last couple of years. Top 7 would be a good step in the right direction and any higher would be a bonus. Then it becomes about winning the annual Lukaka tug of war again and letting Uncle Ron build further in the summer. For me, for quantifiable success you need to look at 3 year periods. There needs to be a cup run next season and a tilt at the top 5, and then a top 4 finish should be aimed for the year after. There are too many good teams to require silverware for success, but equally, existence as a top flight make weight is no existence at all.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Yes, of course, be realistic. In that spirit is it not realistic to expect what is supposedly a better manager than both Moyes and Martinez to repeat their best seasons here? Isn't that why he was chased all summer and head hunted?

I mean, going through all that just to task him with '7th place this season Ronnie lad, and see if you can go 6th next season' doesn't seem worth it really does it?

As said earlier in relation to both Koeman and Moshiri: keep pressing them and agitating against them if they slide. They, after all, are the "new improved" regime...so lets hold them to that. At least match what the Moyes/Kenwright era and Martinez/Kenwright era did or it's all a massive waste of time, surely?

Other teams have improved Dave. Spurs & Man City were not really a problem when Moyes got his best finish, so we just needed liverpool to have a bad season/distracted by the CL. Just as Man utd after Ferguson struggled and we beat a rebuilding spurs team by 3 points under Martinez. I said that is possible we could go above 1 or possibly 2 teams but that's more as a once only thing. Arsenal may struggle once Wenger leaves, but they may kick on if the purse strings really open, the rest of the teams are either settled and or have got managers who will improve them over the next few years.

Of course you don't sit and try to be 7th, we should always push but in terms of resources and attracting players we are where we should be and next season will be the same. In what way do you think we can compete with Man utd/City and Chelsea? Even if we had unlimited funds, they would put an offer to match ours and the player would choose them.

That leaves a four way fight with Arsenal, Spurs, RS and ourselves, but of all the teams we are furthest behind.

We just got taken over too late to make a big sudden impact like what occurred at city. Now I'm not just being a Debbie downer, I have faith we can turn it around but my timescale is the next 3-5 years. Don't expect next season to be miraculously different when 6 rich clubs and the biggest clubs abroad still take the majority of the players we would want.

 

[EddyD]

Getting back in Europe should be our aim.

 

[davek]

.Also, nobody said they'd be happy with 7th for a couple of seasons. The thread and poll relate to THIS season only. Given that 8% want UCL, and 84% wanted EL qualification this season, I doubt very much they would settle for 7th place next season which wouldn't even guarantee European football. I suspect that if we had a separate poll, over 90% would expect us to be challenging for champions league.

And why is it BS to say that it will be a challenge to out perform the "sensational six" as you call it. All of them have better squads than we do at the moment, they have more financial resources than we do at the moment, and they all have top managers in charge, in fact some of the best managers in world football. If Koeman can break into that next season, never mind this, then he's doing very well indeed. He is getting well paid for it mind you.

The first bit in bold contradicts the second bit in bold.

Which is it: 7th is acceptable/unacceptable nest season?

 

[davek]

Other teams have improved Dave. Spurs & Man City were not really a problem when Moyes got his best finish, so we just needed liverpool to have a bad season/distracted by the CL. Just as Man utd after Ferguson struggled and we beat a rebuilding spurs team by 3 points under Martinez. I said that is possible we could go above 1 or possibly 2 teams but that's more as a once only thing. Arsenal may struggle once Wenger leaves, but they may kick on if the purse strings really open, the rest of the teams are either settled and or have got managers who will improve them over the next few years.

Of course you don't sit and try to be 7th, we should always push but in terms of resources and attracting players we are where we should be and next season will be the same. In what way do you think we can compete with Man utd/City and Chelsea? Even if we had unlimited funds, they would put an offer to match ours and the player would choose them.

That leaves a four way fight with Arsenal, Spurs, RS and ourselves, but of all the teams we are furthest behind.

We just got taken over too late to make a big sudden impact like what occurred at city. Now I'm not just being a Debbie downer, I have faith we can turn it around but my timescale is the next 3-5 years. Don't expect next season to be miraculously different when 6 rich clubs and the biggest clubs abroad still take the majority of the players we would want.

When we got 5th a few seasons back: Liverpool, United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs were all better resourced than we were. Even under the last few seasons under Moyes when he consistently averaged 6th that was the case.

There hasn't been a situation for a long time that we weren't worse off resource wise than about 6 teams. Even before City emerged or Spurs there was Newcastle throwing tens of millions at it. And bear in mind that Koeman will get a better crack of the whip than either Moyes or Martinez had finacially speaking.

No mate, there can be no happy acceptance after this season of the best of the rest pat on the head.