Roberto Martinez discussion

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But why not include the Stoke game?

The Stoke game, for me, is when Martinez decided that he had to at least try and be more defensive and since then he has been in terms of our set up and I think since then we have shown improvements.

My problem with RM is never how he sets up his team, it's mainly his changes during a game - even though I do see the logic in them - I think at home especially he has a habit of being too reactive rather than pro-active and that can lead to us not getting the results our displays deserve.
Simply because you are saying that Martinez's tactics changed after that game. We all know we conceded four, but I think that's clouding your judgement of our general record at that time. By using it as an anomaly and removing it from the equation, we get a clearer picture of what our record was like prior to a game you are saying changed Martinez's tactics. When we do that, we can see there has been no great change to our record of conceding goals.

What i'm getting at is that most teams effectively only tend to score as many goals as they need to. We only conceded one against West Brom but they made no attempt to score more, because it wasn't necessary. Same against Swansea, they score & sit back, we equalise, they score again, they sit back again. No need for them to come after us looking for more because they're happy with what they have. City need three in the second leg, how many do they get? Three. Chelsea are two down, come back, need a third, get it. Stoke scored four because we scored three and they wanted to keep coming at us.
 

You see, that's where we part company very sharply. There is no 'ruined season'. Tell me how this is a 'ruined season' please. We didn't get a CL spot? Well, we never really do get one do we? No 'ruination' there. We haven't won a domestic cup for 21 years; again, I'm not calling a continuation of that trend a 'ruination' either. We're mid-table one week and in the top half the previous week and nowhere near any danger = no 'ruination'; playing our best football for a generation = 'ruination' avoided completely...ditto with buying and bringing through this season a strong squad of players. So, all in all, no 'ruined season'.

If you lived through the early and late 90s with Everton, which I'm sure you did, you'll know what a ruined season looks like...and this isn't one of them.

If you boil it all down this season looks like this: played very well, didn't get the rewards that would have turned our current position into a top 6 table position at this stage.

Thats it. No drama. Cut right to the bottom line that's what this season has looked like. No need for setting your hair on fire; no need for conjecture on the manager's status. Just handle it and see how the rest of the season unfolds.


The point is that this season we should have had a punt at the top four if not winning it with this team, Leicester are top. This manager is going backwards with his bore/pass the opposition to death tactics and having Goodison like morgue. This season was a great opportunity to advance and this clown has blown it
 
This is a decent article from Ian Herbert. The quotes from Martinez though underline his thinking.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-way-whether-its-popular-or-not-a6882561.html

Roberto Martinez: Everton manager will do things his way, whether it's popular or not
All is rosy at Everton claims Spaniard but results say it’s not. Ian Herbert reports on a bright manager who refuses to change
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Everton manager Roberto Martinez Getty Images


Fair play to the manager who was booed by his own home supporters six days ago, yet when asked yesterday why he has not delivered progress to match Mauricio Pochettino’s is willing to enter into the discussion and says it is a “fair comparison” to make.

That individual is Everton’s Roberto Martinez and it is testament to an unbreakable faith in his own body of work when he actually volunteers the idea that he and the Tottenham Hotspur manager had started their present jobs in very similar places before the Argentine – who is eight months his senior – accelerated away.






“A new manager coming in and being very clear in a way of playing and giving opportunities to young players and being patient enough for a season,” is what they’ve both been in the recent past, Martinez says. “I think last season [for Pochettino] was a season of getting ready for that process. We have got, in my eyes, probably as good young players as Spurs. I know everyone speaks about the number of players Spurs bring to the England team. We have got the same amount, if not players with more games, more minutes and more responsibility...”

The problem for Martinez, of course, is that his own side are still in genesis while Pochettino’s are second in the table, a berth they have not held at this stage of the season since the mid-Eighties. While Spurs enjoyed the win at Manchester City on Sunday, which felt like a game-changer, Everton’s sixth home defeat of the season against West Bromwich Albion the previous day brought terrace insurrection. Boos when Martinez took off Aaron Lennon and derision for the dubious efforts of Arouna Koné, the sceptically viewed striker seen as a Martinez favourite. Spurs’ FA Cup tie with Crystal Palace on Sunday is a subsidiary part of a trophy challenge on three fronts. Everton’s visit to Bournemouth in the competition tomorrow feels like the only way of keeping the club’s season alive.

The level of opprobrium felt for Martinez among his club’s supporters is curious, however. The boos have become a familiar background chorus this season and yet those Blues fans who contribute to it are the same ones who yearned for a more creative and imaginative kind of football, as the last of the David Moyes “five-year plans” endowed the club with a reputation as uncultivated scrappers. “I’m going into a gunfight armed with a knife,” Moyes once said of facing Manchester City and he was never quite forgiven for it.


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Martinez denies Everton need FA Cup win, plays down Begovic interest

Does popularity matter? I ask Martinez, to which he, being Martinez, offers a lot of words in return which appear to be threaded through with elegance and yet, on re-reading, do not seem to offer an answer. “When you start managing, popularity is important because you feel supported and you feel you can make big decisions with the support of the fans and the understanding of what you’re trying to build,” he says. “In the same way, I understand that if the team wins I will be a popular figure and if the team doesn’t win I am quite happy to accept that emotion from the fans.” Fans would certainly call it something more pejorative than “emotion”.

Here, in the nature of the reply, is the root cause of why the locals struggle to love him. It is the platitudes. The bullshit meter is always charged up on Merseyside and people feel it has found him out, time and again. It’s not always like this. Martinez’s speech to the 25th anniversary Hillsborough memorial service a few years back was exquisitely beautiful and genuine, surpassing the eloquence of Liverpool’s Brendan Rodgers that day, as it happens. Yet when it comes down to talking football, everything in the garden is ridiculously rosy. The Liverpool Echo ran a “Bobby dazzlers” quiz about some of the more far-fetched Martinez pronouncements last week. Defining Gareth Barry as “one of the best English footballers of all time” will always be right up there.

“He says the same thing – win, lose or draw,” says James Corbett, journalist and author of the Everton Encyclopaedia, among other titles. “I would not say he is universally unpopular but he does have a habit of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, when Moyes would often be the opposite.” In his raw Glaswegian Moyes sounded like he meant what he said, too. Perhaps that is why his description of Everton as “The People’s Club” – which came to his mind as his brother Kenny drove him through Liverpool’s back streets to his inaugural press conference – always stuck.

Along with that disinclination to concede there is anything less than milk and honey around Goodison, is a steadfast – almost bloody-minded – reluctance in Martinez to accept that he ought to be doing things differently. “He always plays the same game,” says Corbett. “There is no Plan B.” But the causes of the fear and loathing which we are witnessing at Everton actually run deeper than this. They extend to a sense among many supporters that their club is falling way behind the rest, commercially and economically. There is still no buyer or majority investor and Dave Kelly, the chairman of the Blue Union supporters group, points to the way that Everton have fallen, since forming part of the Big Five at the Premier League’s inception in 1992.

“The board have dumbed down expectations,” says Kelly. “We’re just ‘plucky little Everton’ now. It’s not just a question of there being very little finance. I am loathe to criticise [chairman] Bill Kenwright for having no ambition. There is just no vision either.”

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Everton fans rise out of their seats at Goodison Park
In a real and vivid sense, Liverpool are providing a very visible demonstration of what it takes to grow. Their new Main Stand rising into the skyline across Stanley Park is actually visible from the Gwladys Street End. A recurrent theme in chatrooms is the acceleration away by Tottenham, a team who to Everton minds were once on a par with them. The Premier League tables of recent years actually suggest otherwise. Only once in the past six years (2013-14) have Everton finished ahead of Spurs and the North London club have been substantially superior. They have accrued 13, nine, 13, eight and nine points more than Everton in the other five most recent years, and it is a vast, 16-point class divide now. Yet the argument still stands. The two were bed-fellows once.

A look at two of the other once-great sides whose competitive company Everton used to keep, Aston Villa and Newcastle United, reveals that fortunes can head in another direction, too. Martinez inquired, by way of conversation, yesterday, whether we’d seen Liverpool’s 6-0 win at Villa and there was clearly some agony for a club which wanted him as their manager once. Newcastle’s is another grave predicament. Be careful what you wish for, Everton. Moyes as manager? Tony Pulis? No. Everton are the league’s third top scorers after Leicester City and Manchester City and have scored the largest number of goals from open play.

Winning the FA Cup and ending a 21-year wait for a trophy would certainly buy Martinez some of the breathing space which he seems to be in need of, though of course he won’t say that because the vagaries of the Cup mean there are no guarantees. “No, no. I would not say we need to win [the Cup],” he claims. “What we need is to qualify for European positions. It is impossible to tell until you get into the final part of the season [how realistic that is].”

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He does not feel such a very long way from something incredibly fine at Everton: an achievement which will have the club’s fans looking back one day and wondering where the hell all the early negativity came from. Adding a strong defensive component is the requirement: that much is clear from the way Pochettino’s side have quickly evolved. After 26 games last season Spurs had shipped 36 goals. After the same number this time, they have conceded only 20.

The question is whether Martinez is willing to see things that way. To the question of whether a little more rigour is the important missing component, he shakes his head? “No, it’s not that,” he says. “That’s an easy [characterisation.] When you look at my teams, straight away the easy way to assess it is: ‘You need to defend better.’ Well, my teams are never built to keep a clean sheet and then hope to win the game. Never. I say that openly. I work my teams to be teams which want to be dominant in games but they want to break teams down.

“They know how to score goals, which is the hardest thing in football. But that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t be organised and well-structured and that you shouldn’t defend. The last four games we kept three clean sheets and conceded one goal.” It seemed impolite to say that only three teams outside of the current bottom four have conceded more than his own, this season. He’ll do things his own way, popular or not.
 
But we were actually better that season defensively than we had been under Moyes the previous season(s), so surely Martinez must've been doing something right.

I'm not disagreeing that the defence has got worse, but I do think Martinez has shown that he is capable of good defensive performances - mainly away from home. For whatever reason teams do seem more confident playing against us at Goodison and that is something that needs rectifying.

It's also not wrong to point out since that Stoke game in December I think it's clear that RM has looked to make us more solid and that has been the turning point. 7 goals in 7 league games - three clean sheets etc.

Again, I've got no issue with people taking into account last season (personally it doesn't bother me as it's in the past). But when people insist on taking it into account, I do think it's then only fair to point out his first season and the times it has clicked this term as evidence that he/the team are definitely capable of it.

The reason we lost the game the other day was because experienced players switched off at the set-piece and then we couldn't turn our domination into goals.

But also our goals scored has dropped. Home games only as I think our away form is the best it's been for years

Leicester 2-3
Stoke 3-4
Spurs 1-1
Swansea 1-2
Newcastle 3-0
WBA - 0-1

First 3 we scored 6 in what were much harder games. Second 3 only 4 in much easier games. But what has stayed the same is getting beat by the odd goal. This doesn't really show that the defence is getting better, it shows me the away team our in town to nick a goal to get in front and sit on it.

People may argue the City game but the difference there is they were here for a game, not to sit behind the ball. We can play this style as we do it away all the time. If we could play City and Spurs every week at home then we would win a lot more. It's the crappy teams who don't want to play we have a problem with and it's gone on too long now.
 

But also our goals scored has dropped. Home games only as I think our away form is the best it's been for years

Leicester 2-3
Stoke 3-4
Spurs 1-1
Swansea 1-2
Newcastle 3-0
WBA - 0-1

First 3 we scored 6 in what were much harder games. Second 3 only 4 in much easier games. But what has stayed the same is getting beat by the odd goal. This doesn't really show that the defence is getting better, it shows me the away team our in town to nick a goal to get in front and sit on it.

People may argue the City game but the difference there is they were here for a game, not to sit behind the ball. We can play this style as we do it away all the time. If we could play City and Spurs every week at home then we would win a lot more. It's the crappy teams who don't want to play we have a problem with and it's gone on too long now.

I agree on the point about our home form mate and as I said that does need addressing, but ultimately that does require patience, as frustrating as it is.

We showed in the Newcastle game that we are capable of that balance, which is why it's so annoying to take a 'step back' against WBA.

My main argument is that some fans seem to believe that RM is refusing to accept this when all along he has admitted that the form at home needs to be much better and the mentality needs to change to win those games.
 
the great jobs pochettino and ranieri are doing with squads equal to if not worse than ours just underlines how poor a manager martinez is.

Again, no it doesn't. This time last year Spurs fans were fuming at Poch. Ranieri has come in and added a bit of guile to a Leicester side that were high in confidence.

Tell me how many injuries to key players Leicester and Spurs have had this season....

It's not always black and white. While the results need to be better from us the performances have been there and we're playing some great football. It's not just down to bad luck either and there are obviously areas that need working on, but there is still a third of this season left so in no way is it a right off.
 
I agree on the point about our home form mate and as I said that does need addressing, but ultimately that does require patience, as frustrating as it is.

We showed in the Newcastle game that we are capable of that balance, which is why it's so annoying to take a 'step back' against WBA.

My main argument is that some fans seem to believe that RM is refusing to accept this when all along he has admitted that the form at home needs to be much better and the mentality needs to change to win those games.

Read the article I quoted earlier, he is refusing to change his ways.

How much patience does it require? We've been poor for 18 months now, how come Poch could turn it around at Spurs in the same season and 18 months down the line Martinez still can't sort it out here, despite him saying in that same article that our players are as good as theirs.
 
You see, that's where we part company very sharply. There is no 'ruined season'. Tell me how this is a 'ruined season' please. We didn't get a CL spot? Well, we never really do get one do we? No 'ruination' there. We haven't won a domestic cup for 21 years; again, I'm not calling a continuation of that trend a 'ruination' either. We're mid-table one week and in the top half the previous week and nowhere near any danger = no 'ruination'; playing our best football for a generation = 'ruination' avoided completely...ditto with buying and bringing through this season a strong squad of players. So, all in all, no 'ruined season'.

If you lived through the early and late 90s with Everton, which I'm sure you did, you'll know what a ruined season looks like...and this isn't one of them.

If you boil it all down this season looks like this: played very well, didn't get the rewards that would have turned our current position into a top 6 table position at this stage.

Thats it. No drama. Cut right to the bottom line that's what this season has looked like. No need for setting your hair on fire; no need for conjecture on the manager's status. Just handle it and see how the rest of the season unfolds.

Quite simple, the squad at our disposal is 1000 times better than Brett Angell, bakayoko, Gareth farrelly, Danny Williamson, David ginola, gazza.....I can go on. That's the stark difference. If you want to bang on about the early 90s then lets, but we've moved on as a club and we have a very strong team. That's a fact

The seasons a failure, plain and simple, the results don't lie. The league is wide open and we've blown a huge opportunity and that is at the feet of one man, and one man alone.

But you've missed the boat again and chosen a specific part of my post to get your rebuttal in; however ill highlight it again, going off your original post, the manager DECIDED to go against the obvious instead of dealing with the issue at hand.
 

No, it's not where we belong. But we're six points from 5th and that's how close the league is.

A win on Saturday would have seen us in 8th. A loss has us in 11th.



Our best player that was struggling to make as much of an impact in the second half and he brought Del on which is what people wanted? They both play in the same position and he obviously wanted Barkley to keep up as a No.10...
It should not really be what the crowd wanted regarding Del, the crowd shouting a players name should not influance a manager to bring him on. What was needed was a substitution that was going to alter the game in our favour and to make the opposition change their game plan, not to make a like for like substitution that didn't work, surely thats what the managers job is
 
Again, no it doesn't. This time last year Spurs fans were fuming at Poch. Ranieri has come in and added a bit of guile to a Leicester side that were high in confidence.

Tell me how many injuries to key players Leicester and Spurs have had this season....

It's not always black and white. While the results need to be better from us the performances have been there and we're playing some great football. It's not just down to bad luck either and there are obviously areas that need working on, but there is still a third of this season left so in no way is it a right off.

sorry mate i think it does.

does avoiding relegation by the skin of your teeth boost confidence enough to challenge for the title, martinez should maybe try that tactic.
you're blaming injuries now on are terrible league campaign? thats a cop out.
sorry but our performances have not been there, on the odd occasion maybe but not enough to save him from the sack from any sort of club with a smidgen of ambition.
 
sorry mate i think it does.

does avoiding relegation by the skin of your teeth boost confidence enough to challenge for the title, martinez should maybe try that tactic.
you're blaming injuries now on are terrible league campaign? thats a cop out.
sorry but our performances have not been there, on the odd occasion maybe but not enough to save him from the sack from any sort of club with a smidgen of ambition.

A terrible league campaign ?
we were unlucky to be knocked out of the league cup semi-final, we're in the 5th round of the FA cup and we could easily still finish top 6 in the league, how terrible is that ?
 
Read the article I quoted earlier, he is refusing to change his ways.

How much patience does it require? We've been poor for 18 months now, how come Poch could turn it around at Spurs in the same season and 18 months down the line Martinez still can't sort it out here, despite him saying in that same article that our players are as good as theirs.

I read the article and I don't think he is wrong by sticking by his principles. As RM pointed out in that interview, look at Poch - he didn't change his ways either.

There has to be some form of stubbornness about any top manager. It's not like he's straying into Van Gaal territory. I'd rather him stick to his own principles than bend to the whim of the fans/media.

He's paid to do his job and at the end of the day I highly doubt any of the fans could do it much better. He has changed our style to be more solid in some ways, while attempting to stick to his principles. I respect him for that.
 
the great jobs pochettino and ranieri are doing with squads equal to if not worse than ours just underlines how poor a manager martinez is.
That's one perspective which you're fair to make and I can accept the point you are making, but personally it's not as simple nor clear cut as that.

Let's not forget that Tottenham are a well-resourced club who've over time built a strong squad through expenditure and their youth system.

For every Kane, Ali or Dier, there is an Lamela (£25m), Eriksen (£12m?) or Alderweireld (£11.5m). Add to that Dembéle, Son and Lloris et al.

All credit to Pochettino for what he's done, but arguably he had a much more solid and secure base to work from combined with Levy and his cash.

That's not taking away from our own starting XI and what Martinez should be achieving, however comparing the two isn't completely fair I'd say.

Leicester I still see as some form of erroneous outcome. On paper we're clearly a better squad... but they've had a whole year like this now!

So I'm not excusing Martinez as I have my own concerns and certainly this season hasn't been perfect, although nor has it been a total failure.

We're only six points off fifth place with still a third of the season to go. Still could or should we be higher? Yes, I'd agree to both. But we're not.

Thus, I see Tottenham and Leicester as benchmarks for where we should be aiming for in the future rather than tools to flog Martinez with now.

Martinez isn't exempt from criticism and he has a lot to do to win many fans confidence, myself included, but the time to judge is the summer.

Let us not forget that while the likes of Leicester have been successful there's Chelsea who've plummeted. This season has been all over the place!
 

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