Roberto Martinez discussion

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Khalekan said:
I had forgotten about that.

Just watched it again and I was yelling at him to launch it the same way I was doing at the time :mad:
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as much as we blame RM and Howard for a lot.... some of our player have made some schoolboy errors that have cost us games..... these are a big proportion of our predicament today
 

Saint Domingo said:
No, would like reasons for 18 months of underachievement that attribute even 1% responsibility to the manager. Some people would have you believe we're just caught in a perfect storm of bad luck and inexperience. My only agenda is for a better Everton, currently Martinez in my opinion is impeding that, as soon as he stops doing that I'll have no issue with him whatsoever.
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I don't even think the most staunch Martinez fanboy would say he hasn't made mistakes.

Howard v Joel is obviously a mistake, for one.

You are obviously insightful and articulate when you post but never give any credit to the other factors at play. It's not that you have a responsibility to do so, do whatever you want, but to me it just dilutes the effect of your justified points.

You and I both know that whilst we have a big squad, the depth of quality is shallow for financial reasons. You know that McCarthy and Besic make a difference yet you never mention that they've been injured for a lot of the season and we can't be expected to have a third player as effective in reserve.
We know partnerships are essential yet you never mention the reasonable assertion that missing Baines, Coleman and Jagielka at various times is going to cause disruption especially when the back up is a novice in the league. What is the alternative? Should we have kept Distin and/or Alcaraz? Should have gone for a British based player who would have cost more? But you complain already of his slow progression of the squad in the transfer windows. Who would we have had to sacrifice last summer to pay for a more experienced CB? Deu? Lennon? Both have shown their worth this season.
We know that we can't afford seasoned pros of the quality of Stones and Deulofeu. Yet you never mention that Stones and his naivity against Swansea, against Stoke, against City. You never mention the same in relation to Deu v Chelsea when he tried threading a pass rather than keeping it with seconds remaining. There are other examples. Lukaku wandering around vs Swansea?
We both know Martinez wants a playmaker, yet you never mention that there might not be any available. How many are there in the whole of the PL who are good enough? How much did they cost. Look at De Bruyne as an example. 50-odd million?
There are lots of other examples but I'm boring myself for one never mind anyone else.

You and I both know it isn't just about the manager, yet this thread gets more traction from you than any other. Criticise him, yes, but do so with some perspective. I beg you.
 
Saint Domingo said:
If you don't think it's underachieving then there's really no point debating anything. Do you think bottom half of the league is where Everton belong? Perhaps in the late 90s early 2000s not when you have a 30 goal a season striker up front and international quality in every position. No way, not having that, that's not Everton. We are better than a lot of teams that mediocrites like you and Davek would have us believe we've fallen behind. It's not entitlement it's valid assessment of squad capability. We have a better squad than Southampton Stoke West Ham Palace West Brom. We shouldn't be behind any of these. We should be up competing with Spurs, and any top teams which underperform (United and Liverpool).
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No, it's not where we belong. But we're six points from 5th and that's how close the league is.

A win on Saturday would have seen us in 8th. A loss has us in 11th.

matty1878 said:
He's a proper ted. " we share the frustrations of the fans" regards
To the booing. Erm we booed because you took of our best player you idiot
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Our best player that was struggling to make as much of an impact in the second half and he brought Del on which is what people wanted? They both play in the same position and he obviously wanted Barkley to keep up as a No.10...
 

BlueToff said:
No, it's not where we belong. But we're six points from 5th and that's how close the league is.

A win on Saturday would have seen us in 8th. A loss has us in 11th.



Our best player that was struggling to make as much of an impact in the second half and he brought Del on which is what people wanted? They both play in the same position and he obviously wanted Barkley to keep up as a No.10...
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And del played a blinder .....
 
matty1878 said:
He's a proper ted. " we share the frustrations of the fans" regards
To the booing. Erm we booed because you took of our best player you idiot
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Hi mate

to what effect did the 'best player' have on the scoreline?
would you agree that Deulofeu's delivery is better than Lennon?
At 0-1, having seen our best player beat his man over and over again and fail to provide a goal or assist, do you agree that it is a reasonable prediction that the game would have ended 0-1 had Lennon stayed on?
 
mkrudden said:
Hi mate

to what effect did the 'best player' have on the scoreline?
would you agree that Deulofeu's delivery is better than Lennon?
At 0-1, having seen our best player beat his man over and over again and fail to provide a goal or assist, do you agree that it is a reasonable prediction that the game would have ended 0-1 had Lennon stayed on?
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I personally believe that if Lennon had stayed on and we had the courage to go with two wingers and stretch their defence either side, I think it is indeed a reasonable prediction to suggest we could have got something at least from that game. Having a player beat his man over and over again on both wings would have been the way to go, no?

We didn't even try it though. Our most effective player was hauled off and the shape stayed the same when Deulofeu came on.
 
Tubey said:
I personally believe that if Lennon had stayed on and we had the courage to go with two wingers and stretch their defence either side, I think it is indeed a reasonable prediction to suggest we could have got something at least from that game. Having a player beat his man over and over again on both wings would have been the way to go, no?

We didn't even try it though. Our most effective player was hauled off and the shape stayed the same when Deulofeu came on.
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I disagree, but it's a very understandable point.
 

Tubey said:
I personally believe that if Lennon had stayed on and we had the courage to go with two wingers and stretch their defence either side, I think it is indeed a reasonable prediction to suggest we could have got something at least from that game. Having a player beat his man over and over again on both wings would have been the way to go, no?

We didn't even try it though. Our most effective player was hauled off and the shape stayed the same when Deulofeu came on.
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Who would you have taken off, out of interest?

I agree that the preferred option would have been McCarthy, but I think I can see why he didn't want to push Barkley deeper back, and then risk Barry getting exposed on the counter.

Barry can pick a really good pass/cross so again, it'd have been stupid to take him off.
 
BlueToff said:
Eh?

Is Martinez now meant to be able to see into the future?

Fans were crying out for Del to be brought on and Martinez did so. If he didn't he would've been even more heavily criticised.
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They were crying out for Del to be brought on because they saw the damage Lennon was doing on one side, and the lack of damage we did on the other.

Instead, he brought Lennon off and went like for like with Deulofeu.

No gamble made whatsoever; just repeatedly banging our heads against a WBA defensive brick wall with the same thing over and over again.
 
BlueToff said:
Who would you have taken off, out of interest?

I agree that the preferred option would have been McCarthy, but I think I can see why he didn't want to push Barkley deeper back, and then risk Barry getting exposed on the counter.

Barry can pick a really good pass/cross so again, it'd have been stupid to take him off.
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Personally I would have taken Cleverley off for Deulofeu. That alone would have made a difference.

Late on I would have brought Kone or Mirallas on for either McCarthy or even a centre half/full back.

I understand it is all about opinions, but I think it's undeniable that Martinez didn't manage that game well at all, if at all. It was clear what WBA set up to do, and we did nothing whatsoever to counter it, and played the same way for 95 minutes.
 
Tubey said:
They were crying out for Del to be brought on because they saw the damage Lennon was doing on one side, and the lack of damage we did on the other.

Instead, he brought Lennon off and went like for like with Deulofeu.

No gamble made whatsoever; just repeatedly banging our heads against a WBA defensive brick wall with the same thing over and over again.
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As I said who else would you have taken off?

At that point in the game Lennon wasn't getting in a decent ball despite having played well, and his forays into the box weren't as effective as they had been. Del is better on the right than he is on the left so the change made sense.

I would have liked to have seen Mirallas as well, probably for McCarthy, but we didn't.
 
Tubey said:
Personally I would have taken Cleverley off for Deulofeu. That alone would have made a difference.

Late on I would have brought Kone or Mirallas on for either McCarthy or even a centre half/full back.

I understand it is all about opinions, but I think it's undeniable that Martinez didn't manage that game well at all, if at all. It was clear what WBA set up to do, and we did nothing whatsoever to counter it, and played the same way for 95 minutes.
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I do think he tried though. He changed the shape in bringing Kone on and trying to get support up to Lukaku who had two men on him. It worked to break them down away from home earlier this season and Lukaku does tend to have more joy when Kone is up with him.

Ultimately it didn't work this time and I understand the annoyance as we did have other options, but I understood the logic.
 

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