Roberto Martinez discussion

[BlueToff]

And the fault is with.......The manager.

I have no complaints in how we are playing, well apart from pressing higher up the pitch which I'd like to see, but in general it's a total change from last year.

However, if you've admitted that a conservative back four as us shipping less goals then you must agree that this was the managers fault for banging the same drum for months, which virtually ruined our season again.

He's an experienced premier league manager, not learning his trade, if thousands of people can see the issue and it's blatantly obvious then he's no different from Moyes who was in the same boat with his ability to attack teams on a regular basis.

Last year we could have wrote off, but if the same frailties are constantly on show, and they have been through his entire Pl career,then all fingers point in his direction and rightly so

If you had the choice when Baines came back to put him back in the side you would have done.

Same with Coleman.

And the same frailties weren't on show in his first season which at this stage you always like to ignore.

12 games left. 36 points to play for, plus whatever happens in the cup.

Let's see how it ends up before jumping down his throat (though you did that some weeks ago).

 

[Tubey]

If you had the choice when Baines came back to put him back in the side you would have done.

Same with Coleman.

And the same frailties weren't on show in his first season which at this stage you always like to ignore.

12 games left. 36 points to play for, plus whatever happens in the cup.

Let's see how it ends up before jumping down his throat (though you did that some weeks ago).

No one ignores them. It's just that it wasn't his defence. He inherited one that was used to keeping it tight at the back, whilst Martinez's natural desire to attack meant it made the perfect balance.

The suspicion is that he has eroded that defensive quality over the following two seasons, because that's been his track record his entire managerial career thus far.

 

[BlueToff]

No one ignores them. It's just that it wasn't his defence. He inherited one that was used to keeping it tight at the back, whilst Martinez's natural desire to attack meant it made the perfect balance.

The suspicion is that he has eroded that defensive quality over the following two seasons, because that's been his track record his entire managerial career thus far.

But we were actually better that season defensively than we had been under Moyes the previous season(s), so surely Martinez must've been doing something right.

I'm not disagreeing that the defence has got worse, but I do think Martinez has shown that he is capable of good defensive performances - mainly away from home. For whatever reason teams do seem more confident playing against us at Goodison and that is something that needs rectifying.

It's also not wrong to point out since that Stoke game in December I think it's clear that RM has looked to make us more solid and that has been the turning point. 7 goals in 7 league games - three clean sheets etc.

Again, I've got no issue with people taking into account last season (personally it doesn't bother me as it's in the past). But when people insist on taking it into account, I do think it's then only fair to point out his first season and the times it has clicked this term as evidence that he/the team are definitely capable of it.

The reason we lost the game the other day was because experienced players switched off at the set-piece and then we couldn't turn our domination into goals.

 

[Donald Twain]

That's even more devious than us fence sitters.

I'm on the side of the cult for now but waiting to see how it goes before charging into the melee with a decisive intervention and crowning the winner king!

 

[nsno-chris]

If you had the choice when Baines came back to put him back in the side you would have done.

Same with Coleman.

And the same frailties weren't on show in his first season which at this stage you always like to ignore.

12 games left. 36 points to play for, plus whatever happens in the cup.

Let's see how it ends up before jumping down his throat (though you did that some weeks ago).

Jesus lad, let the first season go it's irrelevant, it was 2 and a half years ago. Football is about the here and now so stop trying to hold on to something, it's becoming quite embarrassing now.

And you're damn right, I would have put them back in. But shock horror, one I seen how open we were at the back I would have done one of two things:
1) dropped them, granted this option may have caused some internal problems.
2) changed tactics and told them not to be so offensive.

But good old bobby kept banging the same drum, cost us numerous points, wrecked fan confidence again. Then past the half way mark of the season then decides to address the issue at hand.

So yes, it is his fault. He's justified it himself by making those changes which are obvious to us all. So you're argument on this post is null and void.

Enjoy your day x

 

[BlueToff]

Jesus lad, let the first season go it's irrelevant, it was 2 and a half years ago. Football is about the here and now so stop trying to hold on to something, it's becoming quite embarrassing now.

And you're damn right, I would have put them back in. But shock horror, one I seen how open we were at the back I would have done one of two things:
1) dropped them, granted this option may have caused some internal problems.
2) changed tactics and told them not to be so offensive.

But good old bobby kept banging the same drum, cost us numerous points, wrecked fan confidence again. Then past the half way mark of the season then decides to address the issue at hand.

So yes, it is his fault. He's justified it himself by making those changes which are obvious to us all. So you're argument on this post is null and void.

Enjoy your day x

So why do you keep mentioning last season then?

 

[mkrudden]

It will be close. In fairness most of the fume comes from the pro Martinez crowd as their arguments get shot down. If we lose they'll be on double shifts of propaganda peddling, If we win he's the messiah and they need to fume against everyone who criticised him

Comedy gold, this.

 

[mkrudden]

Jesus lad, let the first season go it's irrelevant, it was 2 and a half years ago. Football is about the here and now so stop trying to hold on to something, it's becoming quite embarrassing now.

And you're damn right, I would have put them back in. But shock horror, one I seen how open we were at the back I would have done one of two things:
1) dropped them, granted this option may have caused some internal problems.
2) changed tactics and told them not to be so offensive.

But good old bobby kept banging the same drum, cost us numerous points, wrecked fan confidence again. Then past the half way mark of the season then decides to address the issue at hand.

So yes, it is his fault. He's justified it himself by making those changes which are obvious to us all. So you're argument on this post is null and void.

Enjoy your day x

An opinion on an opinion based forum cannot be null and void.

I could make a few constructive suggestions on how you could use your day mate.

 

[Tubey]

But we were actually better that season defensively than we had been under Moyes the previous season(s), so surely Martinez must've been doing something right.

I've just said what he was doing right - he inherited a strong defence in a team that was too conservative under Moyes, and let them off the leash. As such, he found the right balance - we conceded less as we attacked better. It's all about balance.

Now, two seasons later, we have no balance whatsoever, and it's been the same problem for Martinez for a long time now.

 

[BlueToff]

I've just said what he was doing right - he inherited a strong defence in a team that was too conservative under Moyes, and let them off the leash. As such, he found the right balance - we conceded less as we attacked better. It's all about balance.

Now, two seasons later, we have no balance whatsoever, and it's been the same problem for Martinez for a long time now.

You say we have no balance now, but when it has clicked this season we have done. We have had that balance since the turn of the year, bar a mad two minutes against Chelsea.

The run up to Christmas we were conceding too much and we still do concede soft goals. I won't deny that. But at the same time he has looked to solidify up and that is proved by us having only conceded 7 in our 7 league fixtures in 2016.

He himself has said he will stick to his principles and, whether you agree or disagree you have to respect him for that. When it works we're unplayable and I've seen enough signs this season that we are capable of getting that consistency.

I think the frustrating aspect is that we haven't managed that consistency but I don't think he should lose his job for it. I happen to think we have as much chance as keeping this squad together under Martinez as we do anybody else.

 

[Lanolin]

But we were actually better that season defensively than we had been under Moyes the previous season(s), so surely Martinez must've been doing something right.

I'm not disagreeing that the defence has got worse, but I do think Martinez has shown that he is capable of good defensive performances - mainly away from home. For whatever reason teams do seem more confident playing against us at Goodison and that is something that needs rectifying.

It's also not wrong to point out since that Stoke game in December I think it's clear that RM has looked to make us more solid and that has been the turning point. 7 goals in 7 league games - three clean sheets etc.

Again, I've got no issue with people taking into account last season (personally it doesn't bother me as it's in the past). But when people insist on taking it into account, I do think it's then only fair to point out his first season and the times it has clicked this term as evidence that he/the team are definitely capable of it.

The reason we lost the game the other day was because experienced players switched off at the set-piece and then we couldn't turn our domination into goals.

Do you remember the stats that I quoted to you the other day though when you made a similar argument? They showed that there was very little difference in the number of goals conceded in the 9 games prior to the turn of the year, and the 9 games since the turn of the year.

You're saying that we've tightened up since the Stoke game because we conceded 4 in that and it's standing out in your head. Just 2 days before that though, we'd kept a clean sheet. It's been the same principle since, a couple of clean sheets interspersed with conceding 3 against Chelsea and City. We only conceded one against Spurs, but let's be honest, it wasn't due to us being tight at the back.

I don't think there has been a massive change in emphasis, I think sometimes Roberto's style works to perfection and we look outstanding, but other times it falls flat on it's face and we look abysmal. This has always been the way with him, it's why the same Wigan team that came to Goodison and absolutely walloped us 3-0 was also capable of losing 4-0 at home to Liverpool just 7 days earlier. Basically, the whole debate comes down to those who think there is enough of a pattern to suggest this will remain his MO for the remainder of his career, and those who think the good days suggest enough promise for him to turn it round.

 

[BlueToff]

Do you remember the stats that I quoted to you the other day though when you made a similar argument? They showed that there was very little difference in the number of goals conceded in the 9 games prior to the turn of the year, and the 9 games since the turn of the year.

You're saying that we've tightened up since the Stoke game because we conceded 4 in that and it's standing out in your head. Just 2 days before that though, we'd kept a clean sheet. It's been the same principle since, a couple of clean sheets interspersed with conceding 3 against Chelsea and City. We only conceded one against Spurs, but let's be honest, it wasn't due to us being tight at the back.

I don't think there has been a massive change in emphasis, I think sometimes Roberto's style works to perfection and we look outstanding, but other times it falls flat on it's face and we look abysmal. This has always been the way with him, it's why the same Wigan team that came to Goodison and absolutely walloped us 3-0 was also capable of losing 4-0 at home to Liverpool just 7 days earlier. Basically, the whole debate comes down to those who think there is enough of a pattern to suggest this will remain his MO for the remainder of his career, and those who think the good days suggest enough promise for him to turn it round.

Okay fair point.

I'm obviously of the latter point but I do take the other view into account.

I do remember that stat yes. I think that this wasn't for league games though if I remember correctly.

I think the league games stat offers a more balanced view as it allows us to compare ourselves with the rest of the sides in the league and as @davek proved we are 5th best in the league on that front since the turn of the year... that is a clear improvement.

Now I'm not changing the goalposts from my original point, but if we do switch our attention to the league for the above reasons it indicates improvement. Taking into account a two-legged semi-final where we were under the cosh for 90 minutes against one of the best teams in the land where nobody but ourselves has managed to keep a clean sheet in over a year suggests otherwise, though in the same breath if we include that we should also include the FA Cup results, as many other prem teams playing against lower league opposition have conceded (Liverpool vs Exeter, Bournemouth vs Pompey, United vs Derby etc.)

 

[davek]

And the fault is with.......The manager.
I have no complaints in how we are playing, well apart from pressing higher up the pitch which I'd like to see, but in general it's a total change from last year.
However, if you've admitted that a conservative back four as us shipping less goals then you must agree that this was the managers fault for banging the same drum for months, which virtually ruined our season again.

He's an experienced premier league manager, not learning his trade, if thousands of people can see the issue and it's blatantly obvious then he's no different from Moyes who was in the same boat with his ability to attack teams on a regular basis.

Last year we could have wrote off, but if the same frailties are constantly on show, and they have been through his entire Pl career,then all fingers point in his direction and rightly so

You see, that's where we part company very sharply. There is no 'ruined season'. Tell me how this is a 'ruined season' please. We didn't get a CL spot? Well, we never really do get one do we? No 'ruination' there. We haven't won a domestic cup for 21 years; again, I'm not calling a continuation of that trend a 'ruination' either. We're mid-table one week and in the top half the previous week and nowhere near any danger = no 'ruination'; playing our best football for a generation = 'ruination' avoided completely...ditto with buying and bringing through this season a strong squad of players. So, all in all, no 'ruined season'.

If you lived through the early and late 90s with Everton, which I'm sure you did, you'll know what a ruined season looks like...and this isn't one of them.

If you boil it all down this season looks like this: played very well, didn't get the rewards that would have turned our current position into a top 6 table position at this stage.

Thats it. No drama. Cut right to the bottom line that's what this season has looked like. No need for setting your hair on fire; no need for conjecture on the manager's status. Just handle it and see how the rest of the season unfolds.

 

[Lanolin]

Okay fair point.

I'm obviously of the latter point but I do take the other view into account.

I do remember that stat yes. I think that this wasn't for league games though if I remember correctly.

I think the league games stat offers a more balanced view as it allows us to compare ourselves with the rest of the sides in the league and as @davek proved we are 5th best in the league on that front since the turn of the year... that is a clear improvement.

Now I'm not changing the goalposts from my original point, but if we do switch our attention to the league for the above reasons it indicates improvement. Taking into account a two-legged semi-final where we were under the cosh for 90 minutes against one of the best teams in the land where nobody but ourselves has managed to keep a clean sheet in over a year suggests otherwise, though in the same breath if we include that we should also include the FA Cup results, as many other prem teams playing against lower league opposition have conceded (Liverpool vs Exeter, Bournemouth vs Pompey, United vs Derby etc.)

The figures i used were for games against premier league opposition, but included cup games.

In the 7 league games before the Stoke game we conceded 9, in the 7 games after it we've conceded 7. Still not seeing a massive difference.

 

[BlueToff]

The figures i used were for games against premier league opposition, but included cup games.

In the 7 league games before the Stoke game we conceded 9, in the 7 games after it we've conceded 7. Still not seeing a massive difference.

But why not include the Stoke game?

The Stoke game, for me, is when Martinez decided that he had to at least try and be more defensive and since then he has been in terms of our set up and I think since then we have shown improvements.

My problem with RM is never how he sets up his team, it's mainly his changes during a game - even though I do see the logic in them - I think at home especially he has a habit of being too reactive rather than pro-active and that can lead to us not getting the results our displays deserve.