Roberto Martinez discussion

Khalekan · December 30, 2015

ianefc said:
I bet UTD fans are saying the exact same thing on their forums about the fans who wanted rid of Ferguson in the late 80's.

Exactly.

And that is why sensible Chairmen do not listen to malcontented minorities traducing a manager they have faith in.

Saint Domingo · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
Not quite what I'm trying to say though. As I alluded to earlier, the current influx of TV money is making the teams we would traditionally lord it over far more competitive. I don't think we should demand top 8 every season, as that is the expectation from a different era. I think a more realistic approach is to assess what we have in terms of potential (good football, top young talent) and let the manager build something that might have the odd breakout season, in much the way Leicester are doing at the moment. It won't be every year, but when the tide is low and the dominos fall for us, we can achieve something remarkable from time to time. Unlike Dave, I was a fan of Moyes, but he never gave me the belief that we could actually win something. Our current man does, and I think it would be a mistake not to afford him the time to stamp his own mercurial brand of continuity on our team.

Sounds like you're just hoping for a miracle. You could have anyone in charge really if we're leaving it down to 'when the dominos fall for us'. How could they have fallen better this season? Two of the top 4 crashing and burning (Chelsea already out of contention) Liverpool all over the shop, no Europs league, Lukaku Barkley Del and Stones all in the same team fit and in form. Couldn't be s more perfect storm, yet at the halfway stage we're not even top ten.

If the argument really is 'let's just wait and see because you never know it might happen' then it truly is time to stop this whole debate as there is no rational answer to that.

ianefc · December 30, 2015

Khalekan said:
Exactly.

And that is why sensible Chairmen do not listen to malcontented minorities traducing a manager they have faith in.

Hi mate any reason why you left the rest of the post out? That hasn't done your argument any favours, you have basically tried to make it look like I was making a different point to the one I was making.

But I have seen that sort of behaviour before from other posters TBF. It must be catching

Also if you still think those with reservations in Martinez are just a minority I would disagree, I would not suggest they are anywhere near a majority but certainly not a few hundred disgruntled fans like you hope it is.

4737carlin · December 30, 2015

ianefc said:
I bet UTD fans are saying the exact same thing on their forums about the fans who wanted rid of Ferguson in the late 80's all in defence of LVG he's on the cusp of turning the corner by your logic, in fact any club that have had a manager who started poorly but went on to achieve greatness should stand by their current manager regardless of the job he is doing, because of what happened in the past. That's fantastic logic.

Spot on this, Howard was amazing, but in 83 we didn't know this yet, just like United fans didn't know at first how good Sir Alex was going to be, Martinez on the other hand we know all we need to know about him now, one flucky 5th and a lucky cup doesn't hide the reality which is plain to see.

We have some great players right now at Goodison and we are in danger of losing them while he is here, with all the money that is coming into the Premier League next season it is going to be even harder for us, there is a lot of talent in the bottom half right now. Next year for a club which has its playing side managed as bad as Everton it is going to be harder to maintain our current mid table status.

maddison · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
Not quite what I'm trying to say though. As I alluded to earlier, the current influx of TV money is making the teams we would traditionally lord it over far more competitive. I don't think we should demand top 8 every season, as that is the expectation from a different era. I think a more realistic approach is to assess what we have in terms of potential (good football, top young talent) and let the manager build something that might have the odd breakout season, in much the way Leicester are doing at the moment. It won't be every year, but when the tide is low and the dominos fall for us, we can achieve something remarkable from time to time. Unlike Dave, I was a fan of Moyes, but he never gave me the belief that we could actually win something. Our current man does, and I think it would be a mistake not to afford him the time to stamp his own mercurial brand of continuity on our team.

A different era? We've finished in the top 8, excluding last season, for 8 seasons in a row.

Prevenger17 · December 30, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
If the argument really is 'let's just wait and see because you never know it might happen' then it truly is time to stop this whole debate as there is no rational answer to that.

I really don't think you read my post properly. When I look at what Martinez is doing, I see massive potential. It's not blind faith, but a calculated gamble that it will pay off. I don't expect us to be knocking it out of the park every season, we don't have the resources to do so, but we can at least see that Martinez is a couple of tweaks away from achieving something brilliant. I like what our manager is doing, and expect it to pay off. I suppose I am happy to wait and see, actually.

ilikecheese · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
I really don't think you read my post properly. When I look at what Martinez is doing, I see massive potential. It's not blind faith, but a calculated gamble that it will pay off. I don't expect us to be knocking it out of the park every season, we don't have the resources to do so, but we can at least see that Martinez is a couple of tweaks away from achieving something brilliant. I like what our manager is doing, and expect it to pay off. I suppose I am happy to wait and see, actually.

Patiences to allow a young manager develop? Madness.

Prevenger17 · December 30, 2015

maddison said:
A different era? We've finished in the top 8, excluding last season, for 8 seasons in a row.

Right, but one look at the squads we're competing against now compared to the ones we had to play against 3 or 4 years ago should tell you that the game has changed. It might seem odd to talk of it as a different era, but it is. The playing field levelled almost as soon as clubs realized that they would have far more money to play with in the transfer window and that any PL club, regardless of standing, could snap up highly rated players from the continent. We've thrown away points in a season where we could really be pushing for top 4, and I understand peoples' frustrations in a way, but there's plenty of season left and time to get it right.

Prevenger17 · December 30, 2015

ilikecheese said:
Patiences to allow a young manager develop? Madness.

I've had a go at this serious posting for one night and I'm effing exhausted. Honestly don't know how Ian and Domingo do it.

VentureBrosEFC · December 30, 2015

ianefc said:
TBF mate I don't control this forum or the use of the stats, all teams have injuries, if the stats could be made to look positive you can bet your bottom Dollar they would be.... I know this as last year all i heard was record points total this, 5 placed finish that and people dug up old stats to see how unlucky we were to finish on the total we did and not get CL people will use stats when it suits them, people will say it proves I have an agenda against him, well someone prove me wrong 18 wins in the past 57 league games. Since Leicester on the opening day of last season we have played 61 matches against our peers and won 18 in 90/120 minute or 19 if you include wins on penalties.

The only way those stats could be brightened up if you throw in the lower league teams like Barnsley and Reading and throw in the EL run where we won 6 in 12

I think (hope) we're all in agreement that the current form is unacceptable. Of course you don't control anything, was just expressing a wish of mine. Easy to say all teams have injuries but I'd be curious to know how much weight you put behind Baines being out nearly the whole season and our captain being out for such a crucial period? Also on a side note thank goodness Barry has picked his game back up as if he was off form again this season things would be much more dire.

ilikecheese · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
I've had a go at this serious posting for one night and I'm effing exhausted. Honestly don't know how Ian and Domingo do it.

I actually got work done today.

Saint Domingo · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
I really don't think you read my post properly. When I look at what Martinez is doing, I see massive potential. It's not blind faith, but a calculated gamble that it will pay off. I don't expect us to be knocking it out of the park every season, we don't have the resources to do so, but we can at least see that Martinez is a couple of tweaks away from achieving something brilliant. I like what our manager is doing, and expect it to pay off. I suppose I am happy to wait and see, actually.

Is this a code word for massive squad rebuilding? That is inevitably what is going to happen in the summer if we continue in current form. Lukaku Stones for certain possibly Coleman and Deulofeu will go, Barry won't be first team, Jags a year slower, Howard needing to be replaced, Mirallas and Naismith will be off, Pienaar and Osman will probably retire.

Martinez had a three year window with this group of players uninterrupted by any sales to top clubs. If we finish this season in the same vein of form then the time for 'minor tweaks' is sadly over. We will be starting again looking to spend a huge windfall to reshape our squad.

Look on the bright side though, it will provide a whole new set of excuses for people to use. I can hear it now 'transition' 'difficult for players to gel' 'not accustomed to our unique style' 'will take five years t have the squad the way he wants it' blah blah blah.

maddison · December 30, 2015

Prevenger17 said:
Right, but one look at the squads we're competing against now compared to the ones we had to play against 3 or 4 years ago should tell you that the game has changed. It might seem odd to talk of it as a different era, but it is. The playing field levelled almost as soon as clubs realized that they would have far more money to play with in the transfer window and that any PL club, regardless of standing, could snap up highly rated players from the continent. We've thrown away points in a season where we could really be pushing for top 4, and I understand peoples' frustrations in a way, but there's plenty of season left and time to get it right.

We're talking one season though. Not three to four. Have we not also moved forward with our own personnel?

You stated you believe the manager is a few tweaks away from brilliance a few posts back, to say I'm a tad confused by your posts would be an understatement.

Prevenger17 · December 30, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
Lukaku Stones for certain

Mate, we could have won the league and they would have been off. Besides, the mega payload we'll be receiving for them is largely down to Martinez, I fancy him to reinvest wisely.

Dymak · December 30, 2015

Saint Domingo said:
The game has not changed.

Excellent post. The game has changed a little bit though. Everton now actually have a transfer budget, and Martinez is now operating within a far more level playing field than Moyes ever was. But the Martinez cheerleaders bizarrely use this as yet another excuse for our regression under Martinez. How can poor little Bobby be expected to keep up with the likes of Leicester, Palace and Watford when we all have similar transfer budgets?