Roberto Martinez discussion

[Khalekan]

It's that fickle. Everyone here knows it too. Who could take all this seriously? Certainly not those with power over the situation. It doesn't even register with them.

It is a jolly good job the Internet wasn't around in the autumn and early winter if 1983/84, Dave.

Can you imagine what they would be posting about Howard lol

And the match thread for the Oxford away Mikk Cup tie would have made for great reading after little Inchy negated every word that had been posted before Kevin Brock saved Howard's hide and his job

 

[Prevenger17]

Comparable talent? Where is their 30 goal a season striker? Their international defensive line? Their league best full backs? This is a side containing Glen Johnson, Whelan, and have a winger playing upfront. Please please stop these ridiculous excuses. Our squad is far far better than theirs, you know the reason why this isn't reflected in the league table. Hughes is an average manager doing a decent job, Martinez is an average manager doing a hatchet job.

Stoke have a great squad, only blue tinted glasses would say otherwise. Whelan gets a lot of stick but, watching him play for Ireland, he's a very underrated central midfielder. Bojan, Shaqiri, Affelay and Arnautovic are all excellent attacking players. Sure, they don't have a one-man battering ram like Rom this season, but they have goals all across their midfield. Not to mention the fact that they have Butland, a huge cut above what we have in a very important position.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Anyone want to chip in for a plane to fly over Goodison against Tottenham.

El Fraudo OUT

 

[ianefc]

Right. Now with your addendum that takes care of the first issue but to people outside of your own head everything you're posting makes it seem as though you have some illogical vendetta against Martinez while you continually cherry pick what you think managers are responsible for to fit your argument. Just so you know I'm in the middle camp and if at the end of the season we've no cup win plus top half finish or European qualification I want us to assess options.

I have an agenda against Everton doing poorly, with the best squad we have had and baring maybe the final 5 months of this season are likely to have. If it appears that Martinez is a victim of that m, so be it.

The easiest way to look at it is if we were in a position that many fans would of hoped for, I have no argument as almost every point I make is based stats. If the stats improve I can no longer make an argument. If the stats improve between now and then end of the season, I can't make an argument. I have also gone on record as saying if we win the LC he can do what he wants for the rest of the season and you won't hear a peep from me, those that defend him without reproach are doing so on opinion and old stats (that looking at his PL career as a whole appear to be an anomaly) I'm dealing in recent stats, with the really good squad he has created.

That is where my stance comes from, I'm not stubborn though should we improve I'll have no axe to grind. He's a nice guy, a good figure head for the club, he PR skills represent us well with the media (too well as he doesn't get criticised as much as many others) he is good at bringing on youth, he's not as bad as o thought he was gonna be in the Market although their are still some questions to be asked in that department.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Stoke have a great squad, only blue tinted glasses would say otherwise. Whelan gets a lot of stick but, watching him play for Ireland, he's a very underrated central midfielder. Bojan, Shaqiri, Affelay and Arnautovic are all excellent attacking players. Sure, they don't have a one-man battering ram like Rom this season, but they have goals all across their midfield. Not to mention the fact that they have Butland, a huge cut above what we have in a very important position.

Can't believe how many times I've had to have this squad comparison exercise with posters claiming that recently promoted prem teams or bottom half sides have a better or equal squad to us. How can you say it seriously? Their front four are not all excellent attacking players, they are decent players, Arnautovic is a converted winger for crying out loud who plays the odd game upfront when Hughes doesn't fancy John Walters. None can compare to Lukaku or Barkley or Deulofeu. Mirallas sitting on our bench is a better player than Affelay. Whelan has been in the league for years, he is an average player every day of the week. They have a good keeper but aside from that we are better in virtually every position.

If you think Stoke have the same quality of squad as us then you have to ask how Hughes has achieved such a feat whereas Martinez has left us standing still.

 

[ianefc]

It is a jolly good job the Internet wasn't around in the autumn and early winter if 1983/84, Dave.

Can you imagine what they would be posting about Howard lol

And the match thread for the Oxford away Mikk Cup tie would have made for great reading after little Inchy negated every word that had been posted before Kevin Brock saved Howard's hide and his job

I bet UTD fans are saying the exact same thing on their forums about the fans who wanted rid of Ferguson in the late 80's all in defence of LVG he's on the cusp of turning the corner by your logic, in fact any club that have had a manager who started poorly but went on to achieve greatness should stand by their current manager regardless of the job he is doing, because of what happened in the past. That's fantastic logic.

 

[Prevenger17]

Can't believe how many times I've had to have this squad comparison exercise with posters claiming that recently promoted prem teams or bottom half sides have a better or equal squad to us. How can you say it seriously? Their front four are not all excellent attacking players, they are decent players, Arnautovic is a converted winger for crying out loud who plays the odd game upfront when Hughes doesn't fancy John Walters. None can compare to Lukaku or Barkley or Deulofeu. Mirallas sitting on our bench is a better player than Affelay. Whelan has been in the league for years, he is an average player every day of the week. They have a good keeper but aside from that we are better in virtually every position.

If you think Stoke have the same quality of squad as us then you have to ask how Hughes has achieved such a feat whereas Martinez has left us standing still.

Soz Domingo, I think you're putting our team on an undeserved pedestal there. Stoke definitely have a comparable squad to ours, and they're one of a host of established Premier League sides who are really getting the benefit of the TV money. We have a very good squad ourselves, but my point is that Hughes hasn't achieved a feat. He's done exactly what Martinez has done, brought in some good players, play it on the ground, reached a LC semi final and is hovering in a tight and very competitive midtable. I guarantee that there are a lot of Stoke fans who are expecting more from the team they have too.

 

[VentureBrosEFC]

I have an agenda against Everton doing poorly, with the best squad we have had and baring maybe the final 5 months of this season are likely to have. If it appears that Martinez is a victim of that m, so be it.

The easiest way to look at it is if we were in a position that many fans would of hoped for, I have no argument as almost every point I make is based stats. If the stats improve I can no longer make an argument. If the stats improve between now and then end of the season, I can't make an argument. I have also gone on record as saying if we win the LC he can do what he wants for the rest of the season and you won't hear a peep from me, those that defend him without reproach are doing so on opinion and old stats (that looking at his PL career as a whole appear to be an anomaly) I'm dealing in recent stats, with the really good squad he has created.

That is where my stance comes from, I'm not stubborn though should we improve I'll have no axe to grind. He's a nice guy, a good figure head for the club, he PR skills represent us well with the media (too well as he doesn't get criticised as much as many others) he is good at bringing on youth, he's not as bad as o thought he was gonna be in the Market although their are still some questions to be asked in that department.

All fair enough points that sound good especially as you're using "stats" but as everyone should know stats come with context and can be misused often to push forward a conscious or unconscious agenda or unfounded opinion. I'd be curious to know if you've looked at the stats with and without Jags and seen any defensive difference or if you're taking into account that for the whole season we've been playing a teenager (granted a talented one but still a teenager) at lb and a below par Baines for a few games? I really wish this thread would slow down until after the LC semis as then if we've no improvement in the league and are knocked out then I'm all for a good fume but to do it now I think is (and almost understandably) reactionary at best due to the nature of the way we've lost points so late on this season.

 

[Prevenger17]

Can't believe how many times I've had to have this squad comparison exercise with posters claiming that recently promoted prem teams or bottom half sides have a better or equal squad to us. How can you say it seriously? Their front four are not all excellent attacking players, they are decent players, Arnautovic is a converted winger for crying out loud who plays the odd game upfront when Hughes doesn't fancy John Walters. None can compare to Lukaku or Barkley or Deulofeu. Mirallas sitting on our bench is a better player than Affelay. Whelan has been in the league for years, he is an average player every day of the week. They have a good keeper but aside from that we are better in virtually every position.

If you think Stoke have the same quality of squad as us then you have to ask how Hughes has achieved such a feat whereas Martinez has left us standing still.

I do think this is where we fundamentally disagree, by the way. I think we have a very good squad, but ask a Stoke fan and they would say they have their best team for as long as they can remember. We can't hold ourselves to the standard of our team in the 80's, we are a midtable club and have been for a long time. Everton will always be the biggest team in football for me, but my parameters don't have any bearing on the reality of the modern game. I don't hang my image of Everton on former glories and expect us to win leagues, that's for Liverpool fans. They are in exactly the same bracket as we are, albeit it with far more cash and a broader marketing reach.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Soz Domingo, I think you're putting our team on an undeserved pedestal there. Stoke definitely have a comparable squad to ours, and they're one of a host of established Premier League sides who are really getting the benefit of the TV money. We have a very good squad ourselves, but my point is that Hughes hasn't achieved a feat. He's done exactly what Martinez has done, brought in some good players, play it on the ground, reached a LC semi final and is hovering in a tight and very competitive midtable. I guarantee that there are a lot of Stoke fans who are expecting more from the team they have too.

This is ultimately what it boils down to isn't it though, expectations of Everton's players. For me I expect us to be ahead of the riff raff. I can't understand how a good manager can take a well established top 6 side, inherit two brilliant academy prospects and buy a 30 mill striker, implement his philosophy for two and a half seasons with total control of all aspects of the club, yet get outperformed by sides who have been in the league for maybe a few seasons, have spent a bit of money on Europe's unwanted players, have chopped and changed their manager etc. It defies logic how this money has provided an uplift to every team outside the top 6 except us.

I don't think Stoke fans do expect more. They are hovering outside the top 7 which is unprecedented for their club. I remember not so long ago when 8th was classed as failure for Everton, even fifth was bemoaned. How times have changed for the worse.

I honestly don't mind the differing opinions people have on Martinez but this constant making excuses for him by trying to convince everyone that Everton's ambitions should not be beyond getting into the top ten is mad.

The game has not changed. I expect any Everton manager to deliver as a minimum a challenge for European football every season (clearly the running of the club late 90s early 2000s didn't allow for this). People can call it entitlement all they want but we used to be a pretty entitled bunch, we even put it on the badge.

 

[ianefc]

All fair enough points that sound good especially as you're using "stats" but as everyone should know stats come with context and can be misused often to push forward a conscious or unconscious agenda or unfounded opinion. I'd be curious to know if you've looked at the stats with and without Jags and seen any defensive difference or if you're taking into account that for the whole season we've been playing a teenager (granted a talented one but still a teenager) at lb and a below par Baines for a few games? I really wish this thread would slow down until after the LC semis as then if we've no improvement in the league and are knocked out then I'm all for a good fume but to do it now I think is (and almost understandably) reactionary at best due to the nature of the way we've lost points so late on this season.

TBF mate I don't control this forum or the use of the stats, all teams have injuries, if the stats could be made to look positive you can bet your bottom Dollar they would be.... I know this as last year all i heard was record points total this, 5 placed finish that and people dug up old stats to see how unlucky we were to finish on the total we did and not get CL people will use stats when it suits them, people will say it proves I have an agenda against him, well someone prove me wrong 18 wins in the past 57 league games. Since Leicester on the opening day of last season we have played 61 matches against our peers and won 18 in 90/120 minute or 19 if you include wins on penalties.


The only way those stats could be brightened up if you throw in the lower league teams like Barnsley and Reading and throw in the EL run where we won 6 in 12

 

[Khalekan]

Anyone want to chip in for a plane to fly over Goodison against Tottenham.

El Fraudo OUT

not me.

 

[navidson]

This is ultimately what it boils down to isn't it though, expectations of Everton's players. For me I expect us to be ahead of the riff raff. I can't understand how a good manager can take a well established top 6 side, inherit two brilliant academy prospects and buy a 30 mill striker, implement his philosophy for two and a half seasons with total control of all aspects of the club, yet get outperformed by sides who have been in the league for maybe a few seasons, have spent a bit of money on Europe's unwanted players, have chopped and changed their manager etc. It defies logic how this money has provided an uplift to every team outside the top 6 except us.

I don't think Stoke fans do expect more. They are hovering outside the top 7 which is unprecedented for their club. I remember not so long ago when 8th was classed as failure for Everton, even fifth was bemoaned. How times have changed for the worse.

I honestly don't mind the differing opinions people have on Martinez but this constant making excuses for him by trying to convince everyone that Everton's ambitions should not be beyond getting into the top ten is mad.

The game has not changed. I expect any Everton manager to deliver as a minimum a challenge for European football every season (clearly the running of the club late 90s early 2000s didn't allow for this). People can call it entitlement all they want but we used to be a pretty entitled bunch, we even put it on the badge.

I agree with all of this

 

[Prevenger17]

I honestly don't mind the differing opinions people have on Martinez but this constant making excuses for him by trying to convince everyone that Everton's ambitions should not be beyond getting into the top ten is mad.

Not quite what I'm trying to say though. As I alluded to earlier, the current influx of TV money is making the teams we would traditionally lord it over far more competitive. I don't think we should demand top 8 every season, as that is the expectation from a different era. I think a more realistic approach is to assess what we have in terms of potential (good football, top young talent) and let the manager build something that might have the odd breakout season, in much the way Leicester are doing at the moment. It won't be every year, but when the tide is low and the dominos fall for us, we can achieve something remarkable from time to time. Unlike Dave, I was a fan of Moyes, but he never gave me the belief that we could actually win something. Our current man does, and I think it would be a mistake not to afford him the time to stamp his own mercurial brand of continuity on our team.

 

[ianefc]

This is ultimately what it boils down to isn't it though, expectations of Everton's players. For me I expect us to be ahead of the riff raff. I can't understand how a good manager can take a well established top 6 side, inherit two brilliant academy prospects and buy a 30 mill striker, implement his philosophy for two and a half seasons with total control of all aspects of the club, yet get outperformed by sides who have been in the league for maybe a few seasons, have spent a bit of money on Europe's unwanted players, have chopped and changed their manager etc. It defies logic how this money has provided an uplift to every team outside the top 6 except us.

I don't think Stoke fans do expect more. They are hovering outside the top 7 which is unprecedented for their club. I remember not so long ago when 8th was classed as failure for Everton, even fifth was bemoaned. How times have changed for the worse.

I honestly don't mind the differing opinions people have on Martinez but this constant making excuses for him by trying to convince everyone that Everton's ambitions should not be beyond getting into the top ten is mad.

The game has not changed. I expect any Everton manager to deliver as a minimum a challenge for European football every season (clearly the running of the club late 90s early 2000s didn't allow for this). People can call it entitlement all they want but we used to be a pretty entitled bunch, we even put it on the badge.

I also think that's a great post.