Roberto Martinez discussion

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davek said:
I hear this a lot as an apology for Moyes' tired old sterile football. It usually comes with (as per your reply) the odd example from 11 years of matches when good football was seen from a Moyes team. And it pretty much underlines the case that he was by and large an uninspiring and dull manager.
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The 07/08 season we got to a league cup semi, broke our PL points record, and got to the last 16 in the UEFA Cup. This was done with a midfield of Osman Arteta Pienaar Cahill and Yakubu playing upfront.

Highlights included topping our UEFA group, beating West Ham away from home twice in three days, taking Fiorentina apart at home, Yakubu hitting 20.

If you think all of this was built on tired old sterile football then you're incorrect. We had a midfield who could dictate a lot of games and some of the interplay with Baines Pienaar Arteta and Osman was brilliant. We literally have Yakubu tap ins that season. Miraculously we also balanced this all with a solid defence. Apparently now though the Europa league is an excuse to turn out relegation form.

Your extremist views on Moyes and Martinez without any acceptance of shades of grey is strange. Both managers have shown themselves to be capable of playing good football and also absolute dour dross.
 

orly said:
More absolute drivel.

I've already explained the tosh about the attendances in another thread. It's utter bilge.

The united game was 4 December 2013 - over two years ago. Even you can see we've gone backwards since then. And what makes this example even funnier is you've shown us the last time we've beaten a top side away. He's going to have to break his run spectacularly to beat City in the semi.

Moyes wouldn't have done it away at a big side like Martinez vs United?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9307308.stm

Here's where we win 2-1 away at a City side with Tevez and Yaya Toure. He brings Saha on for Coleman in the 79th minute. Anichebe got sent off around the hour mark. But if you know your history, hey.

Couldn't beat the worse RS side since the 60s? The Hodgson side was laughably bad. You must have had your hands over your eyes when we've been beaten two years on the trot at home to Palace... and Stoke... Cracking draw down at Norwich though.



Oh really? I wouldn't look at his years at Wigan or the last 18 months here then, save yourself some disappointment.

Here's the season where, shock of shocks, we managed to play european football and not finish bottom half

5 Everton 38 19 8 11 55 33 +22 65

So that's a total of six less goals scored and six less conceded (and seven points less) than the Halewood Globetrotters team you're still holding wistfully onto. We also managed the semi-final of the league cup (this season's highpoint so far) and last 16 in Europe. Out first round to Oldham the blot on the copybook. But hey, you're right, Moyes never really went for it.


The last few years of Moyes' reign were a miserable time - not necessarily because of results, more a bad combination of beauts like him, Steve Round and Phil Neville being in it for their own self-aggrandisement. He'd given up caring.



Jesus absolute wept. If the players are going to coach themselves better, what on earth are we employing him for? Oh yes that's right, so we can fete him over the goals scored chart.



Martinez hasn't won at Chelsea, had us 4-0 down after 50 minutes against Liverpool and hasn't won at Arsenal. His away record against the so-called 'big sides' [spit] is weighted very, very heavily on that United result.



And yet, remarkably, you've forgotten how bad it was for most of last season, particularly the bit where we managed 21 points from 19 games. Look at this corker of a run

20/12/2014 15:00 A Southampton FC 0:3 (0:1)
26/12/2014 15:00 H Stoke City 0:1 (0:1)
28/12/2014 16:15 A Newcastle United 2:3 (1:1)
01/01/2015 15:00 A Hull City 0:2 (0:2)

We played some cracking football in those four. There's also a sublime midseason run where we manage 3 wins in 18 games.
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I cant believe people are actually still defending that ginger weapon.
 
davek said:
I hear this a lot as an apology for Moyes' tired old sterile football. It usually comes with (as per your reply) the odd example from 11 years of matches when good football was seen from a Moyes team. And it pretty much underlines the case that he was by and large an uninspiring and dull manager.
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Exactly right

But the question isn't what Moyes did or didn't do...It's about what Martinez does and doesn't do
 

neil999 said:
seems some people prefer consistent averageness than our current highs and lows, almost human nature to not want to be that risk taker...interesting
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I prefer calculated risk taking. The risk taking so far as all ended badly (predictably so to many observers). As the great Gary Neville said, you have to take risks to score a goal.

Bobby would make a poor poker player
 
hullefc said:
"Martinez will sort out the defence as he sorted out our attacking style. Of that I am convinced. He may change to a 4 -3 -3 like he did against Chelsea this season. He may give Howard a rest. He may drop Stones when he can. He may play 3 at the back. But the biggest element driving the desire to change the defending, will be the players own desire to work on their own game that will sort it out. As it was when we changed last year the attacking side of our game, to play to Lukaku's strengths".

Martinez is no fool and can see like the rest of us that we are conceding goals. He is always going to carry around the 'what he did at Wigan' and the 'defensive side of the game'. Fine. He is always going to carry around that baggage and any discussion will always point at Wigan's defensive frailties and say 'see that's how Martinez's teams defend'. I suppose much like Mourinho will always be tarnished with 'he got the sack because he turned a league winning side into also rans'. And Van Gaal will always carry the baggage that 'he squandered millions and the Manu still were crap'. Or Moyes with his negative football mentality.

The only way that he can dispel that is to 'improve' our defending. But it is a two way thing with the coaches and players, as it was for our vast improvement in attack. Lukaku improved because he had the desire to work on aspects of his game that needed sharpening. And in the process made a mockery me and any doubts I had about his ability and worth to us.

If we have the professionals, I think we have, it will be driven by the players - as it should because they are the ones on the pitch that have to defend.
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That's drivel mate sorry.

So it's the players who need to improve their own defending and sort it themselves? Why have a coaching team and a manager then?

Ossie's revelation in his book that we didn't even practise set piece defending under Martinez, tells you all you need to know about the level of drilling the back line is getting.

Great defences are built on solid defensive drilling. Hour after hour on the training ground, practising how to counteract all sorts of scenarios as a defensive unit, not as individuals ffs.
 
davek said:
I cant believe people are actually still defending that ginger weapon.
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The last few years of Moyes' reign were a miserable time - not necessarily because of results, more a bad combination of beauts like him, Steve Round and Phil Neville being in it for their own self-aggrandisement. He'd given up caring.
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It's written in the post David. Can't make my feelings on him any clearer, and we've discussed them on mutual terms in the thread where we laughed at his United failings.

I personally can't see how anyone can defend the current incumbent and his miserable record. But there we go!
 

WarringtonBlue said:
Sorry what? Surely not!!

Last season we played bad,y and lost. Our performances are better but the results are stuttering. I cannot emphasise enough how a good goalkeeper can lead a situation
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Take a look at the Howard thread

Went off on the supporters saying he knows more about goalkeeping than we do and that our opinions mean nothing to him

Martinez benching him now and saying the comments had something to do with it would probably earn him some brownie points if nothing else
 
banno said:
This is true. I was very grateful for Moyes in his first 4-5 seasons as he got us to a top table finish regardless how the football was not pretty. It was after that when we all thought we should kick on but we couldn't because of resources that killed it for me. His tactics was basically get a point if we win then a bonus then little old everton kicked in nationwide and all the media and our management convinced many that Everton was doing great. That was it....same old same old and as you rightly say consistent averageness and Everton was there just to exist and nothing else.

Current highs and lows is also a perfect description and I would take it all day rather than a safe team. Its not working at the moment and everyone can see that but we can also see an exciting style, some great football and defo not a safe team. Something is there and work still needs doing. I am more excited about this Martinez team than I am about any Moyes team. Its a rollercoaster ride rather than the tea-cup ride.
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I had no problems with Moyes and I always had a feeling we could win something if he could only be more of a risk taker.
I guess it was never in him to take them risks, but he give us security and I think we all grew into enjoying that security.
In RM it is a roller coaster and he has removed that comfort blanket we all enjoyed, we are seeing football I never thought we would ever see, but we are seeing the frailties that he had at Wigan. The thing is we are building something, but we're Moyes played safe and achieved nothing RM is the polar opposite and I guess we might not achieve anything
I for one like the roller coaster rides, but like the safety belt to be working....
 
At the start of the season when we came back against WBA I was sure we had turned a corner

Bournemouth, Palace, Stoke, Leicester, Norwich. Should have had 13/15 points

We have 3.

10 points dropped. With those 10 we would be up with City

Not doing anything amazing, just winning games where we are the better team and holding out in the last few minutes

I like martinez. I like what he is trying to do. I like moyes. I like what he did. I don't want moyes back but I want martinez to Wi games we should win and not throw the away and if that means 10 minutes of 2 banks of 4 so be it.
 
Lowste said:
One of the headers we good defending by Coleman who just eased him out of the way so no way of directing the ball.
The Mitrovic header was caused by Stones stepping out of position and trying to win a ball that was never his to win. If he would of stayed in position he would of easily dealt with it, instead though it was left to Baines who,was always going to be second best. As for the Howard one, surely teams will get chances in the 90mins
I don't disagree over a defensive coach, or over Howard, over defending corners we appear to of done some work but only time will tell
I do think a experienced defender would help, in Vidic he knows the game inside out and also is a leader and that is something we lack.
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You don't agree that Howard needs replacing - you must blind or [Poor language removed] stupid!
 

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