Remembering Moyes

[Moomin]

We peaked in 2009, he should have walked then.

Agree with this, the job defeated him after that final and the sale of Lescott. He only stayed because it was easy money and a lot of it. If he never went to United he would still be our manager now.

If Martinez has to go a few years without any cash to spend on players, it will defeat him in the end as well. Then we can praise our new manager to the hilt and slag Martinez off.

 

[Goat]

He phoned it in from 2009 onwards.

 

[Ihaters]

To be honest, those two sets of stats seem to run into each other quite seamlessly.

No one in the future is going to look at those figures and be owt other than underwhelmed.

At best it could be described as mediocrity morphing into average.

As someone else said, let's just all be grateful to Sralex for convincing Mr. Moyes to string Everton along for a few months then move up the East Lancs.

Otherwise we would still have him at the helm, sullenly treading water whilst the media were telling us how lucky we were that he condescended to remain our manager.

Eh? Seamlessly run into each other?

So you think the next number in this sequence should be 7th and that 9 out of the next 11 should be 8th or above?

13th, 17th, 15th, 6th, 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th....
A quick and simple analysis will tell you its far from seamless continuity here, as that would of seen us top half once.. maybe (clearly an anomaly as we didn't get close again), fighting relegation regularly, and bottom half for all but one year of the entire duration of the era.

Under Moyes however, we had two years finishing bottom half, one very poor, the other better than all bar one season from the decade before, the rest of the finishes were all 8th and above including being the first team to break the top 4 glass ceiling.
This actually happened despite every caveat you lot can come up with to claim its mid table or the irrelevance of finishing 4th, or that style of play is all that counts blah blah... this is what actually happened.

7th,17th,4th,11th,6th,5th,5th,8th,7th,7th,6th

So, year by year and he's been bettered just once.

12th, 13th, 17th, 15th, 6th, 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th ----Not Moyes -Total 153 places
-7th, 17th, -4th, -11th, 6th, -5th, --5th, -8th, --7th, -7th, -6th ---- Moyes - Total 83 places

In the two 11 year periods, Moyes got us a total of 70 places better off.. That's nearly twice as good as the combined efforts of every manager that decade+ including Kendall and Royle.

Anyone who sees that as seamless is simply not willing to see.

Martinez playing style>Moyes, but he's going to have to do something spectacular to improve on the impact Moyes and his 'seamless transition' had on our team.

Although a simple cup win would do it.

Even at our best during that era, under Royle, his 6th place finish was equalled or bettered no less than 5 times out of 11 by DM, the second best finish in the previous period is worse than Moyes second worst finish.. I'll just repeat that... the second best we could achieve before Moyes, in the same time frame he was here, was worse than all but one of Moyes finishes.. After Royles 6th, we couldn't even muster a single 11th or better.

Seamless? The two runs of finishes would be hard pushed to be less seamless if they tried.

Do completely agree with the last couple of sentences though, thank you SAF.

Apologies for the RAWKness of this post but these are unedited facts, not agenda driven spin, they are the league finishes as they were, the bare facts if you can compare them and come up with them being seamlessly running into each other, genuinely i'd love to hear your perspective on how that can be.

 

[teppic]

Agree with this, the job defeated him after that final and the sale of Lescott. He only stayed because it was easy money and a lot of it. If he never went to United he would still be our manager now.

If Martinez has to go a few years without any cash to spend on players, it will defeat him in the end as well. Then we can praise our new manager to the hilt and [Poor language removed] Martinez off.

I'm not sure how much money there is available, but I pray Martinez never loses his mojo for the job. I really feel Arsenal will be sent home with nothing on Saturday.

Regarding Moyes and 2009, you could almost pin the whole thing coming apart with the Arteta injury. The Jagielka and Yakubu injuries pretty much took the 'spine' out of that cup final team.

After scoring so early, it always was the fear that Moyes would attempt to defend for the remaining 89 minutes. It was massively unfortunate also that Hibbert had such a bad game that day. He offeres little going forward, but in a backs to the wall effort, you would usually want him in the team.

 

[Dymak]

We peaked in 2009, he should have walked then.

Moyes' era did peak in 2009. But the sale of Lescott made our progress regress significantly, and then Moyes had to go something like two and a half years without signing a single first team player, after he had spent the Lescott money. I cant think of a manager that would have served us better during that two and a half year period.

 

[Goat]

Moyes' era did peak in 2009. But the sale of Lescott made our progress regress significantly, and then Moyes had to go something like two and a half years without signing a single first team player, after he had spent the Lescott money. I cant think of a manager that would have served us better during that two and a half year period.

He didnt spend the Lescott money well, Distin and Heitinga were good signings, but Billy was a gamble that sadly didnt come off and then yes, as you say, he was left with nothing, which I personally think only made him care less, but to his credit, we maintained our league position to a degree, every place counts at Everton.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Moyes' legacy will depend entirely on what comes after. If Martinez kicks on, he'll always be seen as a nearly man, never good enough for a top team. If Martinez also fails to break the glass ceiling then Moyes' legacy becomes more favorable - someone who took as as far as anyone could ever expect. If Martinez oversees a period of decline, then Moyes' looks like a Moyesiah again.

I expect it will be the first choice, but let's not pretend like Moyes is or was a bad manager. He is a spectacular manager for a club looking to stabilize, and if I were any of the bottom half teams I would be doing everything in my power to get Moyes to the club as my first option.

Either way, everyone involved needed to clear out and get fresh air. Moyes needed to prove himself (or fail to) at United, and we needed to get new ideas into what had become stagnation.

Moyes was a bell over the transfer window, and his comments about Everton on the whole. This made me enjoy his failure at United. It does not change that he was an extremely good manager for us when we were perennially fighting relegation.

Whether he's remembered fondly will hinge upon Roberto Martinez.

ETA: Like Gordon Lee is not remembered fondly by many due to what followed. If HK had been a failure, I suspect Lee would be seen more favourably.

 

[Goat]

Martinez has directly benefited from Moyes asute signings in the transfer windows, with the half a squad he was left with and the assets he sold.

But I totally agree, Martinez will define Moyes.

 

[NEC]

Eh? Seamlessly run into each other?

So you think the next number in this sequence should be 7th and that 9 out of the next 11 should be 8th or above?

13th, 17th, 15th, 6th, 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th....
A quick and simple analysis will tell you its far from seamless continuity here, as that would of seen us top half once.. maybe (clearly an anomaly as we didn't get close again), fighting relegation regularly, and bottom half for all but one year of the entire duration of the era.

Under Moyes however, we had two years finishing bottom half, one very poor, the other better than all bar one season from the decade before, the rest of the finishes were all 8th and above including being the first team to break the top 4 glass ceiling.
This actually happened despite every caveat you lot can come up with to claim its mid table or the irrelevance of finishing 4th, or that style of play is all that counts blah blah... this is what actually happened.

7th,17th,4th,11th,6th,5th,5th,8th,7th,7th,6th

So, year by year and he's been bettered just once.

12th, 13th, 17th, 15th, 6th, 15th, 17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 15th ----Not Moyes -Total 153 places
-7th, 17th, -4th, -11th, 6th, -5th, --5th, -8th, --7th, -7th, -6th ---- Moyes - Total 83 places

In the two 11 year periods, Moyes got us a total of 70 places better off.. That's nearly twice as good as the combined efforts of every manager that decade+ including Kendall and Royle.

Anyone who sees that as seamless is simply not willing to see.

Martinez playing style>Moyes, but he's going to have to do something spectacular to improve on the impact Moyes and his 'seamless transition' had on our team.

Although a simple cup win would do it.

Even at our best during that era, under Royle, his 6th place finish was equalled or bettered no less than 5 times out of 11 by DM, the second best finish in the previous period is worse than Moyes second worst finish.. I'll just repeat that... the second best we could achieve before Moyes, in the same time frame he was here, was worse than all but one of Moyes finishes.. After Royles 6th, we couldn't even muster a single 11th or better.

Seamless? The two runs of finishes would be hard pushed to be less seamless if they tried.

Do completely agree with the last couple of sentences though, thank you SAF.

Apologies for the RAWKness of this post but these are unedited facts, not agenda driven spin, they are the league finishes as they were, the bare facts if you can compare them and come up with them being seamlessly running into each other, genuinely i'd love to hear your perspective on how that can be.

As I stated in a previous post, in the Moyes era the league became two in one - a top half and a bottom half. It was far easier for a team to go 7th to 16th in one season in the kendall/royle era than it was in the Moyes era and that is down to the clear differences in clubs and their salary payments. Back in the Royle era, there was a far more level playing field, the variation in league finishes and volatility of year to year finishes was greater.

Regardless of transfer value, we have been able to pay better than the majority in terms of players wages - this is the key component in ensuring continuity and attraction of better talent. An example of this would be that Wigan could never keep their best players once they had proven themselves as worthy of earning above £20k a week, they would let their contracts run down or have to sell them. We could retain the likes of Arteta by paying £70k a week.

 

[NEC]

Martinez has directly benefited from Moyes asute signings in the transfer windows, with the half a squad he was left with and the assets he sold.

But I totally agree, Martinez will define Moyes.

Moyes should have directly benefited from his astute signings - plus the likes of Barkley. Unfortunately for Moyes, working with "better" players was not his thing.

He said once that he "wished he had 11 Kevin Kilbanes" - I think we all know that to be true.

 

[Goat]

Moyes should have directly benefited from his astute signings - plus the likes of Barkley. Unfortunately for Moyes, working with "better" players was not his thing.

He said once that he "wished he had 11 Kevin Kilbanes" - I think we all know that to be true.

I think youve just made that quote up.

 

[Blue Cheese]

I've said before, He really did give us the kick up the arse we needed when he took over and instilled a never say die attitude. Brilliant he managed to do what every other Everton manager in history near enough has done and that's keep us in the top flight.

However 11years 0 Trophies in fact only 1 Final, is no matter what way you paint it a terrible record for a Club of our size. Couple with how he left and he's soured his tenure here.

 

[Ihaters]

Moyes should have directly benefited from his astute signings - plus the likes of Barkley. Unfortunately for Moyes, working with "better" players was not his thing.

He said once that he "wished he had 11 Kevin Kilbanes" - I think we all know that to be true.

He did directly benefit from his astute signings.

 

[Ihaters]

As I stated in a previous post, in the Moyes era the league became two in one - a top half and a bottom half. It was far easier for a team to go 7th to 16th in one season in the kendall/royle era than it was in the Moyes era and that is down to the clear differences in clubs and their salary payments. Back in the Royle era, there was a far more level playing field, the variation in league finishes and volatility of year to year finishes was greater.

Regardless of transfer value, we have been able to pay better than the majority in terms of players wages - this is the key component in ensuring continuity and attraction of better talent. An example of this would be that Wigan could never keep their best players once they had proven themselves as worthy of earning above £20k a week, they would let their contracts run down or have to sell them. We could retain the likes of Arteta by paying £70k a week.

We were only able to pay these extra wages due to the high finish of the teams Moyes built, not the other way round. Moyes wasn't given the funds build quality then pay it back with the finishes, he had a poor team, made it good then paid them appropriately. Otherwise we would still be paying a low wage for a poor team.
Getting us into Europe earnt us money to pay more wages, that doesn't make a better player, we didn't get Coleman because we offered 90k a week.

 

[NEC]

I think youve just made that quote up.

No, Mark Lawrensen stated it clearly on football focus. The old Preston N.E connection.