Remembering Moyes

[TX Bill]

For me, the one giant elephant in the room that either no one is considering or they don't care to mention is this.

The game has changed dramatically over the past 15-20 years. More specifically, the money. Everton were left behind when the financial revolution occurred.

We can compare Moyes to Kendall, to Smith, to Walker, to Martinez all we want but there must be some perspective about the era of football when it comes to how many clubs spent their way to success.

Moyes didn't. Moyes succeeded (a relative term I know) in spite of the financial windfall to many of the clubs in the Premier League, not because of it. That said, if Everton had come into the money that Chelsea, City, etc... did, would he have been as successful as those clubs have been with Everton? I'm not sure and I'd guess that he wouldn't be.

I started supporting Everton in '98-'99 and got to see the tail end of the Smith reign and Moyes' reign in it's entirety so I assume my perspective is quite a bit different from those who've been supporting the club longer than I. For me, Moyes kept us up, pure and simple. He did the best he could with what he had and was very very astute in the transfer market. I thought he was great for the club when he was appointed and basically took us from relegation candidates to top half finishers on a regular basis. He vaulted us in to Europa League consideration on an annual basis, passing clubs who were somewhat established in the Premier League and many of which, have since been relegated. That's something to be applauded, not derided.

However...where he started to lose me (and then lost me as a member of the IMWT brigade) was his substitution patterns, sticking with out form players, and playing generally defensive football. Against Chelsea? Yeah, I get it. Against Sunderland? I don't get it. Then when behind to a team 1-0, he'd bring on Johnny Heitinga at DM for Phil Neville (I know, we could have a separate conversation about Neville himself.) At the end of his reign here, I think he was out of ideas and had done all that he could do for us. I don't blame him at all for jumping to Manchester United. Not at all.

I think that different managers have different qualities. Just because Mourinho is successful with a club like Chelsea (loaded with talent) doesn't mean that you could put him at Burnley and he'd automatically keep them up. It's a different kettle of fish and basically, a different job requirement. On the flip side, you put Moyes with us and he did very well. With a club like United? Not so much.

I choose to remember the entire tenure of Moyes at Everton and for me, the positive over the ten years here outweighs the negative, and by a pretty good margin.

 

[Ihaters]

Posted this previously, but this is what people will see when they look at the history books....

From

Season P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts Pos
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th

To this:

2002-03 38 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th

Notes may be made that this was done with funding massively overshadowed by the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, QPR, Newcastle and Villa.

That is the average job of which people speak, looks good to me. Especially when you add that he gave us 27 mil for Fellaini as well

1 final, no silverware but massive progress in both on the pitch has left Martinez with quality, quantity and some money to spend.

 

[Khalekan]

Posted this previously, but this is what people will see when they look at the history books....

From

Season P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts Pos
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th

To this:

2002-03 38 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th
2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th

Notes may be made that this was done with funding massively overshadowed by the likes of Sunderland, Stoke, QPR, Newcastle and Villa.

That is the average job of which people speak, looks good to me. Especially when you add that he gave us 27 mil for Fellaini as well

1 final, no silverware but massive progress in both on the pitch has left Martinez with quality, quantity and some money to spend.

To be honest, those two sets of stats seem to run into each other quite seamlessly.

No one in the future is going to look at those figures and be owt other than underwhelmed.

At best it could be described as mediocrity morphing into average.

As someone else said, let's just all be grateful to Sralex for convincing Mr. Moyes to string Everton along for a few months then move up the East Lancs.

Otherwise we would still have him at the helm, sullenly treading water whilst the media were telling us how lucky we were that he condescended to remain our manager.

 

[Goat]

To be honest, its gonna be a few years yet before we doing anything other than treading water.

Martinez certainly looks like he has what it takes to take that final step that Moyes couldnt, we just want a God damn shiny, as I said I think Martinez can get us 1, that should clearly be our goal, but long term we need to break up the elite at the top and as I say, I cant see that happening for a while yet.

FFP was meant to bridge the gap, but these Oil Barons and Investment bankers that run football clubs employ very clever people who invented the word loophole.

As for Moyes I was a fan, from where he took us to where he left us, with the money he had, not only for transfers, but also for wages, it was nothing short of a mircale, year after year we lost our best players and we maintained our league positions, we got to a Cup Final and we got back into Europe.

Im sure a few are reading this thinking thats not Everton and your right, 6th place finishes and almost winning a cup isnt Everton, I guess the 90s messed me up in a big way, Moyes made me believe again, so I got onboard. But he peaked in 2009, we as a club and Moyes as a Manager, he never had that certain something to carry us over the line and after initially being unhappy about his departure, on reflection, it was the best thing that could have happened to the club.

His ego meant he failed at United and his comments since he left have ruined any chance he ever had of being welcome back here, I look back at time with mixed feelings, I think he did a good job, not a great job and certainly not a poor job, its up to Martinez now, can he do what Moyes couldnt? I hope so, with all my heart.

 

[SingBlue]

FFP was meant to bridge the gap, but these Oil Barons and Investment bankers that run football clubs employ very clever people who invented the word loophole.

I get what you're trying to say, but respectfully disagree. To my (cynical) mind, FFP was merely the mechanism to protect the big clubs after the G-14 was rightly abolished.

Essentially FFP stops other clubs from benefitting from newly acquired benefactors. The three year accounting shadow period prior to its implementation allowed a lot of the big clubs to "rinse" the losses from their balance sheets. Do you really think RS spent over £100m on the failed Anfield redevelopment? More than our "mid range cowshed" in Kirkby was going to cost, and not a brick was laid down? Is Man City's development of Middle Eastlands with stadium expansion and training academy really going to cost the lions share of a £billion as they initially claimed?

If you look at the sanctions FFP has in place - fines (like that's gonna hurt the rich clubs), limits on squad sizes for Europe (as applied to Man City in addition to a fine) and ultimately exclusion from Europe, they're all not worth the paper they're written on. They have wrapped up so many exemption clauses - related to the Commercial Importance (their words) of clubs to competitions. For that you could read the importance of their commercial partners. All of these clubs have huge tier 1 sponsors - many of them also sponsor UEFA or FIFA competitions. They aren't gonna be denied their advertising payback by seeing their clubs excluded from European competition.

If FFP was really meant to deliver what it said - Chelsea and Man City would be banned for this season. Real Madrid and Barcelona would be banned to the next Millennium. All it's done, when combined with their co-efficient system of seeding, is make it harder for the non-G-14 clubs to get a look into the money pot.

 

[NEC]

Ok...how's this?

Martinez took Wigan down.

Everton, under Moyes, were never relegated (although there were times where we might have been a good bet to go down.)

I think the circumstances in how Wigan were relegated were somehow different to managing club like Everton. In reality the likes of Everton, Spurs, Villa, should never be relegated - they have similar funding levels in terms of player salaries, attraction etc.

Wigan were capped at £20k ish a week per top earning player and suffered really bad injuries defence wise that season. I think Martinez performed amazingly not to take them down earlier to be honest.

 

[NEC]

For me, the one giant elephant in the room that either no one is considering or they don't care to mention is this.

The game has changed dramatically over the past 15-20 years. More specifically, the money. Everton were left behind when the financial revolution occurred.

We can compare Moyes to Kendall, to Smith, to Walker, to Martinez all we want but there must be some perspective about the era of football when it comes to how many clubs spent their way to success.

Moyes didn't. Moyes succeeded (a relative term I know) in spite of the financial windfall to many of the clubs in the Premier League, not because of it. That said, if Everton had come into the money that Chelsea, City, etc... did, would he have been as successful as those clubs have been with Everton? I'm not sure and I'd guess that he wouldn't be.

I started supporting Everton in '98-'99 and got to see the tail end of the Smith reign and Moyes' reign in it's entirety so I assume my perspective is quite a bit different from those who've been supporting the club longer than I. For me, Moyes kept us up, pure and simple. He did the best he could with what he had and was very very astute in the transfer market. I thought he was great for the club when he was appointed and basically took us from relegation candidates to top half finishers on a regular basis. He vaulted us in to Europa League consideration on an annual basis, passing clubs who were somewhat established in the Premier League and many of which, have since been relegated. That's something to be applauded, not derided.

However...where he started to lose me (and then lost me as a member of the IMWT brigade) was his substitution patterns, sticking with out form players, and playing generally defensive football. Against Chelsea? Yeah, I get it. Against Sunderland? I don't get it. Then when behind to a team 1-0, he'd bring on Johnny Heitinga at DM for Phil Neville (I know, we could have a separate conversation about Neville himself.) At the end of his reign here, I think he was out of ideas and had done all that he could do for us. I don't blame him at all for jumping to Manchester United. Not at all.

I think that different managers have different qualities. Just because Mourinho is successful with a club like Chelsea (loaded with talent) doesn't mean that you could put him at Burnley and he'd automatically keep them up. It's a different kettle of fish and basically, a different job requirement. On the flip side, you put Moyes with us and he did very well. With a club like United? Not so much.

I choose to remember the entire tenure of Moyes at Everton and for me, the positive over the ten years here outweighs the negative, and by a pretty good margin.

A well structured post but for me I like to use Joe Royle as a measuring stick for Moyes. He took over the club in similar circumstances but really did galvanise us in a positive "we are gonna give you a game" way. He won the FA Cup in pretty good style too.

I respect Moyes for the way in which he balanced the books very well. I do not respect that his unease at lack of funding was bought of with a £70k a week salary, nor did I like the fact that he dampened expectations when he actually constructed a team good enough to play far better and more adventurous.

Whilst all this was ongoing he carried himself with an air of arrogance and when the fans questioned his decisions he responded churlishly. I remember too well him replacing Jelavic with Heitinga at 1-1 against Bolton and when Heitinga got the winner he became all smug.

He had his good points, was hard working, dilligent etc but for me he was here 5 years too long.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

A well structured post but for me I like to use Joe Royle as a measuring stick for Moyes. He took over the club in similar circumstances but really did galvanise us in a positive "we are gonna give you a game" way. He won the FA Cup in pretty good style too.

I respect Moyes for the way in which he balanced the books very well. I do not respect that his unease at lack of funding was bought of with a £70k a week salary, nor did I like the fact that he dampened expectations when he actually constructed a team good enough to play far better and more adventurous.

Whilst all this was ongoing he carried himself with an air of arrogance and when the fans questioned his decisions he responded churlishly. I remember too well him replacing Jelavic with Heitinga at 1-1 against Bolton and when Heitinga got the winner he became all smug.

He had his good points, was hard working, dilligent etc but for me he was here 5 years too long.

I don't agree with that at all.

We were still competing financially on a relatively even footing with the top clubs in the league back in '94. Joe managed to sign arguably United's best player in the summer of '95, something that would be laughable today and certainly was when Moyes arrived. Joe did a great job, but Moyes had the far tougher task imo.

 

[NEC]

I don't agree with that at all.

We were still competing financially on a relatively even footing with the top clubs in the league back in '94. Joe managed to sign arguably United's best player in the summer of '95, something that would be laughable today and certainly was when Moyes arrived. Joe did a great job, but Moyes had the far tougher task imo.

You could argue and say that in reality "transfer" money at that time meant more clubs were in amongst it - there was less of a breakaway group and tighter competition. Man united paid a massive at the time £7m for Andy Cole in 1997 - conversely Sheff Wed had paid £5.7m for Paulo Dicanio. Two clubs who were different in terms of performance levels.

Point being is that for me, back then more teams could beat better teams than we see now.

The way it is structured now is that you have a top 5/6 competing for the 4 places, then after 7th 8th the league is very predicatable as to who will end up near the bottom.

Back then any team from supposedly near the bottom could have a great season - the likes of Wimbledon and QPR could be top half one season and relegation battlers the next. There were far more permutations in results than we see these days, in short if Moyes went about his business the way he did in his era back then I feel we would have been seeing far more "lower" and risky finishes.

The consistency of Moyes league finshes were down to the fact that he steadied the ship at a time where the league was very much more a case of top 10 are always going to be ok, the rest need to worry. When Royle was in charge you seen far more lesser teams beating so called better teams.

 

[bignev23]

You have to laugh really at the people who expected David Moyes to transform Everton into a top 4 side. Really, are they going to turn on Martinez as well when he doesn't.

 

[NEC]

You have to laugh really at the people who expected David Moyes to transform Everton into a top 4 side. Really, are they going to turn on Martinez as well when he doesn't.

No one expected him to turn us into a top 4 side, but I don't think he needed to set expectations and make us play like a lower half side.

Its not about where we finish so much - sure its important, but how we go about our business on the pitch is the way in which Evertons traditions must be maintained.

His record against the top 4 and how we went about playing them was embarrassing, in one season we seen RM take the fight to these boys and hand Evertonians our pride back. Sure we got hammered at Anfield - but lets be honest that coincided with Liverpool hitting top form and they did it to a few teams, at least they weren't chanting for 10 more years.

He will get the odd game wrong - all managers do. But his footballing principles are more school of science than hoofball.

 

[Joey66]

You have to laugh really at the people who expected David Moyes to transform Everton into a top 4 side. Really, are they going to turn on Martinez as well when he doesn't.

No I feel at least RM is playing football in the correct manner = no more hoof ball - he has fetched youngster's like Barkley through in one season where DM left him out on loan just like Coleman!
He encourages youngsters , and uses the loan markets time will tell, but if the football is entertaining that is what matters to me imo!
Phil Neville would be along side DM now as a coach if he had stayed, as I stated SAF did us one big favour as shown he could not handle the UNT job fittingly sacked after we beat them 6 points off United last season that is how good he was!
3 seasons of reasonable football out of 11 years and not one trophy as I stated a better Gordon Lee never got accolades he was sacked! DM was payed well over the odds as well he demanded the same wages as Raffa and LFC were consistently in the champions league!

 

[Goat]

Moyes didnt play hoofball, we played some wonderful football under Moyes, its a total myth that we played hoofball.

I actually prefer Moyes "direct Style" than the tiki taka we play now.

/shrugs

 

[Kev The Rat]

A lot of the seasons merge into one for me under Moyes. Every season seemed pretty much like the last, and now that I think about it, not necessarily in a good way.

 

[Goat]

A lot of the seasons merge into one for me under Moyes. Every season seemed pretty much like the last, and now that I think about it, not necessarily in a good way.

We peaked in 2009, he should have walked then.