Is 7th and "Net Spend" The Only Reason To Keep Moyes

[slimspek]

Board has to go before Moyes does.
When Moyes has been given the resources we've done well. Look at this season. yeah we've had a rough patch lately but we've played some of the best football in the league. Limited resources will only take you so far, it's up to the board to push us further.

 

[mutley]

Net spend league means nothing.

what a load of tosh

 

[Stend]

what a load of tosh

Where's Chico?

 

[Stend]

He's hit the top 4, why does it now need a couple of occasions, will you change to winning a couple of trophies should he get one? Would it change to top 3 should he get 4th again?
I think having finishes of 4th, 5th, 6th,7th and 8th under his restrictions do make him a quality manager, in terms of both bringing in players and getting results with them.
We all want silverware, I also think people over simplify how easy it is to achieve, yes a few have fluked it once, but how many repeated that outside of the obvious top teams? i.e how many were not flukes?
Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I think its harder to buy quality players with no money and play them to their level than it is, its odd how so many other teams can't do it though.

He's done it once. So to me ( and by your post above) that top 4 finish was possibly a fluke. If he'd cracked it 3 or 4 times over his 11 year career it wouldnt be considered a fluke.

Evertons squad of players is probably the 7-8th best in the league so no matter how much we acquired them for thats where we should be finishing and on average that's where we do. Net spent ISN'T everything.

 

[Christiffa25]

Personally don't think you can fluke a top 4 finish. It's a compitition over 38 games with a squad not as good as many of the teams we finished above.

Over performing and fluke are completely different. The final loss against Chelsea was a great performance getting to the final, knocking out very good teams on the way. Ultimately coming up short against at the time a VERY good Chelsea team, we were also missing some key players.

Moyes has done great really over his time here. He's not perfect and I'm sure he's made mistakes that cost us games over his tenure. Which manager hasn't. The Liverpool semi last year a prime example. Can't see anyone else coming in and doing better overall, many could do ALOT worse.

 

[banno]

Nope.

I wanted Moyes out last year, i don't anymore.

Make yer mind up lad.

 

[nigelcoyb]

I believe what Stend is saying is that simply by looking at net spend/wages paid doesn't tell the whole story.

So therefor any clown who says "we can't compete with Liverpool because they have a player who cost £18 million and is on £75,000 week" or any similar line is talking complete bollocks and missing the way way more important fact :

that it doesn't matter how much a player cost/gets paid if they're complete gash and our player who cost less/gets paid less is actually the better player, ala Steven Pienaar.

Do that throughout the whole squad and anyone using net spend as an excuse for failure is a bad bad apologist.

Money only makes it easier to sign better and more players, during transfer windows we're at a distinct disadvantage. But once the players are signed money doesn't come in to it, its all about ability. You compare the ability of the squads not the price tags.

Of course there's a general rule that the more you spend the better your players are but thats not a hard and fast rule when applied to football.

Moyes does a very good job considering his resources. But those resources, despite what some people like to claim, do not create a catch all excuse for every single failing he has as a manager and we have as a team.

Terrific post covers all the bases, well done sir.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Anyone who can't make the straighforward & bleeding obvious correlation between player funding budgets & success, needs their bumps felt.

It's a subject that's been done to death & the arguments against have more holes than a swiss cheese.

Moyes is playing a game that I personally don't like at present over his contract, but to decry the mans achievements during his tenure by labelling him a bottler & attempting to create some form of argument that player funding isn't key to success in the EPL of 2013, is agenda driven nonsense imho.

 

[Stend]

Anyone who can't make the straighforward & bleeding obvious correlation between player funding budgets & success, needs their bumps felt.

It's a subject that's been done to death & the arguments against have more holes than a swiss cheese.

Moyes is playing a game that I personally don't like at present over his contract, but to decry the mans achievements during his tenure by labelling him a bottler & attempting to create some form of argument that player funding isn't key to success in the EPL of 2013, is agenda driven nonsense imho.

The point a few are trying to make. (Well, what I am) is that Moyes isn't this big Messiah. He can be replaced and his management
and league finishes are about right for the squad he has. This thing of him working miracles here is slightly tosh. He's got a fantastic eye for a bargain deal. Which helps him. Just because our net spend is 14th in the league doesnt instantly mean he has the 14th best squad in terms of quality in fact it couldn't be further from the truth. Quality of squad should be used in comparison to league finish and he's not exactly excelling with what he's got.

 

[Timak]

The point a few are trying to make. (Well, what I am) is that Moyes isn't this big Messiah. He can be replaced and his management
and league finishes are about right for the squad he has. This thing of him working miracles here is slightly tosh. He's got a fantastic eye for a bargain deal. Which helps him. Just because our net spend is 14th in the league doesnt instantly mean he has the 14th best squad in terms of quality in fact it couldn't be further from the truth. Quality of squad should be used in comparison to league finish and he's not exactly excelling with what he's got.

But he has put that squad together and only once in 6 years has finished below a squad of lower quality (Newcastle last year and if you asked neutrals they'd be 50/50 over who had the better squad).

So all you are asking is to finish above every squad of similar cost/quality EVERY season and finish above some squads of vastly higher quality/cost as well. Don't ask much do you.

*and back round into the circular argument we go*

 

[Stend]

But he has put that squad together

*and back round into the circular argument we go*

That makes him a good scout. Not a miracle worker on the pitch.

 

[Stend]

But he has put that squad together and only once in 6 years has finished below a squad of lower quality (Newcastle last year and if you asked neutrals they'd be 50/50 over who had the better squad).

So all you are asking is to finish above every squad of similar cost/quality EVERY season and finish above some squads of vastly higher quality/cost as well. Don't ask much do you.

*and back round into the circular argument we go*

Ah you've added to your post. I don't think you get where I'm going. Moyes is doing his job just fine. He's finishing in his expected position. But NOTHING more. He gets branded as a miracle worker all the time. He's not. A miracle worker would be gazumping those better quality more expensive squads.

So what he's essentially saying is: I can only work with what I've got I can't push this squad any further. That's not a messiah and nor is it a miracle worker. Someone else could come in and do exactly the same.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

The point a few are trying to make. (Well, what I am) is that Moyes isn't this big Messiah. He can be replaced and his management
and league finishes are about right for the squad he has. This thing of him working miracles here is slightly tosh. He's got a fantastic eye for a bargain deal. Which helps him. Just because our net spend is 14th in the league doesnt instantly mean he has the 14th best squad in terms of quality in fact it couldn't be further from the truth. Quality of squad should be used in comparison to league finish and he's not exactly excelling with what he's got.

You mean the squad he built? that squad?

What you're saying there contradicts itself. As you're saying on one breath Moyes has bought well & has purchased players of a quality that is better than his budget, but because of that skill he's shown, that the expectation in terms of performance of that squad should be better than double what his budget is........so, you acknowledge that his skill has created a squad that is capable of massively out performing the budget given, & yet you're still advocating a change of manager. It makes zero sense.

Managers live or die by their purchases & it's the arguably the key skill in modern football management - which is greatly exacerbated when the manager has limited funds & therefore little margin for error.

Park the 'messiah' argument btw, as no-one has labelled him as such in this debate, so it's an inane comment.

 

[nigelcoyb]

But he has put that squad together and only once in 6 years has finished below a squad of lower quality (Newcastle last year and if you asked neutrals they'd be 50/50 over who had the better squad).

So all you are asking is to finish above every squad of similar cost/quality EVERY season and finish above some squads of vastly higher quality/cost as well. Don't ask much do you.

*and back round into the circular argument we go*

Timak I wrote the piece to identify "money vs league position" is only a part of the managers job.

It's pushing at an open door banging on about this isolated point everyone agrees it's a plus for Moyes even if many think it's no miracle but credit to him for a reasonable job in this area.

It's the other points as itemised in the piece that need improvement highlighted by the Wigan and City games unfortunately Moyes has had this flaw year on year it's highly unlikely it will change. Given there's no sign of Kenwright changing what option is there if we want better than what we've had this decade?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Given there's no sign of Kenwright changing what option is there if we want better than what we've had this decade?

Having a sense of perspective, that's what option there is. You're expecting the moon on a stick & because Moyes can't deliver it, you're advocating change without a logical argument to back up your stance imo.

As it stands, I think you're going to get the change that you crave in any case, as I'm convinced Moyes has already decided to move on. Maybe your perspective on Moyes tenure,may alter in a year or so's time, as without change in the boardroom we can realistically not expect more than we currently have, whether we like it or not.