Is 7th and "Net Spend" The Only Reason To Keep Moyes

[Timak]

Agreed. I was mainly just trying to make a point that simply looking at net spend ignores the pretty obvious fact that longevity should guarentee lower than average net spending.

Look I think Moyes has done a good job for us overall. He's stablilised the ship whereas another clown at that time could have got us relegated and seen us become a bloody Notts Forest or Sheffield Wednesday.

It's time to go now and the sooner he goes before he says even more condescending ****

And you want Neil Lennon or Duncan Ferguson to be our new manager.

Do you honestly believe they'd do better? If so why?

 

[Stend]

Net spend example: let's consider all the money was given for both transfers by the board.

Liverpool spend £18m on Stewart Downing. Wage is 75k per week

Everton spend £2m on Steven Pienaar. Wage is 60k per week.

Liverpools net spend is £18m + 75k PW
Evertons net spend is £2m + 60k PW

But who has the better player. Well in our opinion it will be Pienaar. To neutral fans it might be a closer call but nobody will agree that Stewart Downing is worth £16m more than Steven Pienaar.

This is a prime example of net spend not being the whole picture. If clubs can get quality players for cheap you don't need bucket loads and Moyes has been able to do that. Net spend is a smoke screen. It also doesn't take in account for big transfer fees collected.

There are players on ridiculous wages and have had ridiculous fees paid for them which has bulked up other clubs net spends.

 

[Brennan]

Net spend example: let's consider all the money was given for both transfers by the board.

Liverpool spend £18m on Stewart Downing. Wage is 75k per week

Everton spend £2m on Steven Pienaar. Wage is 60k per week.

Liverpools net spend is £18m + 75k PW
Evertons net spend is £2m + 60k PW

But who has the better player. Well in our opinion it will be Pienaar. To neutral fans it might be a closer call but nobody will agree that Stewart Downing is worth £16m more than Steven Pienaar.

This is a prime example of net spend not being the whole picture. If clubs can get quality players for cheap you don't need bucket loads and Moyes has been able to do that. Net spend is a smoke screen. It also doesn't take in account for big transfer feed collected.

There are players on ridiculous wages and have had ridiculous fees paid for them which has bulked up other clubs net spends.

This post makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

Pienaar cost £16m less than Downing, therefore Moyes did a significantly better job despite having less money. How does that disprove the net spend argument ?

 

[Goat]

This post makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

Pienaar cost £16m less than Downing, therefore Moyes did a significantly better job despite having less money. How does that disprove the net spend argument ?

*beams*

 

[Stend]

This post makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

Pienaar cost £16m less than Downing, therefore Moyes did a significantly better job despite having less money. How does that disprove the net spend argument ?

Of course it does. Downing cost £16m more than Pienaar. Therefore Liverpools net spend Is already 16m more than ours and we have the same if not better calibre player.

 

[nigelcoyb]

Not sure I understand. If you mean that the "old Sky 4" were more powerful than the current competition then I can't agree. Back when we finished 4th we only had to finish above one of them to qualify. Now we have Manchester City and Tottenham in the mix too. So we have to finish above 3 teams with huge squads filled with more talented players, able to reinforce whenever the need arises.

There may be more numbers now but as I suggest they're mostly in flux Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea are nowhere near what they were and Spurs are always fragile - what we lack in numbers I believe we make up for in stability.




How do you decide which the big games are? Did we choke when finishing 4th (beating Man Utd / Newcastle in must win games)? Did we choke when beating Liverpool, Villa, Boro, Man Utd to get to the cup final? Or does only losing to Chelsea (the most expensively assembled team in world football at the time)?

Overall our big games are in the cups after all a few wins and you win a trophy Wigan and Leeds being games we should win 9 times out of 10 going by the money argument, the derby record even when they're shte and the 48 attempts at the old sky4 grounds. i just can't see how anyone can say we don't choke in big games.
And who says we choke? Sometimes we lose to better teams. Other times we lose to worse teams who play better on the day.



But what you seem to be asking for is a team that always beats worse teams AND always beats the better teams AND wins trophies. It would be good if you could give an example of a team that does this because otherwise it doesn't seem realistic.

I'm really saying we cock up to many games for reasons that look like we're not motivated or Moyes does daft things like Leeds when we're playing cracking stuff beforehand rather than being a perfect team - see Wigan



Again you are picking which games you think matter and which don't.



Yeah it was great, but back then we could compete financially. We were one of the big spenders. The "Mersey Millionaires" period, signing the likes of Lineker etc meant we could win stuff.



So all you expect from our manager is to get our players to perform at 100% every game whilst expecting the opposition manager to only get theirs to perform at 80%. Is that fair or realistic?

Not really saying that the point is our strength without the instability of the monied elite should be less distraction, infighting etc if the team were more often like the City game than the Wigan game what a difference



Which two teams out of Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham do we have a better squad then?
Which manager assembled the squad you rate as the 4th best in the country for no money?

Liverpool, Arsenal and possibly Spurs are either in turmoil, transition or have a new manager they are there to be shot at as shown against Utd and City we have the talent. Moyes but as I say in the piece he has a fundamental flaw which destroys his better work and squanders the "time rich" benefit.







Can you name a manager that does have "something"?

Martinez



See that is just bizarre. You see the problem, the board, but want the manager to go.

We can't go on like this and do you think the board are going? At least there's the possibility of change for the better with a new manager as per Moyes Mk1, if it goes tits up the board are exposed - win win.

Do you honestly believe that the problem with this club is the manager and that someone else could do better?

He has reached his peak and I'm not fearful of change - positive not negative thats the way forward.

Thanks for the civil reply btw

 

[Timak]

This is a prime example of net spend not being the whole picture. If clubs can get quality players for cheap you don't need bucket loads and Moyes has been able to do that. Net spend is a smoke screen. It also doesn't take in account for big transfer fees collected.

There are players on ridiculous wages and have had ridiculous fees paid for them which has bulked up other clubs net spends.

What a strange argument.

If it is that straightforward why don't all managers do it?

By the way we signed Pienaar from Dortmunds reserve team, he was not rated at all by them. The skill of being able to identify and improve through coaching the likes of Pienaar is why Moyes is rated so highly.

Yet you want rid of him.

 

[Brennan]

Of course it does. Downing cost £16m more than Pienaar. Therefore Liverpools net spend Is already 16m more than ours and we have the same if not better calibre player.

Erm, yeah. That's sort of the point.

Moyes gets on average £1.5m per season to spend after player sales.

Liverpool have spent on average £17m per season after player sales.

 

[Stend]

What a strange argument.

If it is that straightforward why don't all managers do it?

By the way we signed Pienaar from Dortmunds reserve team, he was not rated at all by them. The skill of being able to identify and improve through coaching the likes of Pienaar is why Moyes is rated so highly.

Yet you want rid of him.

Steven Pienaar was a quality player for Ajax before he even joined Dortmund. He didn't come from nowhere.

 

[Stend]

Erm, yeah. That's sort of the point.

Moyes gets on average £1.5m per season to spend after player sales.

Liverpool have spent on average £17m per season after player sales.

What's the point Brennan?

Your basing league finishes on net spend. Net spend could mean you've spent £35m on Andy Caroll, Newcastle pay £7m for Demba Ba. Who scores more goals and finish higher in the league. Net spend isn't everything.

Moyes squad of players is better than his net spend much better. He just got them cheap. Which makes him a good scout and our board good negotiators.

 

[Moomin]

Net spend example: let's consider all the money was given for both transfers by the board.

Liverpool spend £18m on Stewart Downing. Wage is 75k per week

Everton spend £2m on Steven Pienaar. Wage is 60k per week.

Liverpools net spend is £18m + 75k PW
Evertons net spend is £2m + 60k PW

But who has the better player. Well in our opinion it will be Pienaar. To neutral fans it might be a closer call but nobody will agree that Stewart Downing is worth £16m more than Steven Pienaar.

This is a prime example of net spend not being the whole picture. If clubs can get quality players for cheap you don't need bucket loads and Moyes has been able to do that. Net spend is a smoke screen. It also doesn't take in account for big transfer fees collected.

There are players on ridiculous wages and have had ridiculous fees paid for them which has bulked up other clubs net spends.

Wrong, it's net, it will take into account the transfers collected.

 

[LITLEJOE]

I'm as gutted as anyone about the Wigan game but l would be gutted if Moyes left. I posted this the other day:-

Depressing tunover stats

Everton - £80 million
West Ham - £81 million
Liverpool - £180 million
Man Utd - £350 million

It's the board we need to focus on. No manager can compensate for the kind of financial gap that is growing between us and the top teams. Unfortunately the league table very closely matches the wage league apart from us.

We are lucky to have Moyes it's the board that has ****ed this club.

so true, KENWRIGHT OUT

 

[Moomin]

What's the point Brennan?

Your basing league finishes on net spend. Net spend could mean you've spent £35m on Andy Caroll, Newcastle pay £7m for Demba Ba. Who scores more goals and finish higher in the league. Net spend isn't everything.

Moyes squad of players is better than his net spend much better. He just got them cheap. Which makes him a good scout and our board good negotiators.

Oh my, our board good negotiator's, really????

 

[Brennan]

Wrong, it's net, it will take into account the transfers collected.

I think what he's saying is that big transfers out can somehow distort the figures.

Which makes no sense to me, as generally when you sell a player for big money it means you're weakening your squad by selling one of your best players. See: Lescott, Rooney.

 

[Stend]

I think what he's saying is that big transfers out can somehow distort the figures.

Which makes no sense to me, as generally when you sell a player for big money it means you're weakening your squad by selling one of your best players. See: Lescott, Rooney.

I agree your weakening it. But usually with these type of deals you have enough to replace ( Distin ) and more

Bilyaletdinov £9m. Absolutely terrible deal.
Heitinga £6m. Played as a DM in his first season.

For me £15m of that money could have been used a lot better. Heitinga has turned into a fairly decent (basis of last season) but not great.

The Lescott sale should really have kicked us on. Distin was a virtually identicle replacement.