2024/25 Sean Dyche - Sacked

[Neiler]

It will be a wipeout mate, maybe not all at once but in a controlled professional manner. No way will these entertain the serial losers at Everton. Everything will change, i have no doubt at all.

Personally I don’t think it will be wipeout mate, agree there will be incremental change, but there are issues at play, that tempers the degree of change.

One is the squad, some compromises need to be made, we have 12 players in contract in the summer and we might need to sell a couple of them, no way are we brining in 13-15 players in one window - which would suggest a need for some one year contracts that I feel could be unpopular.

Secondly PSR will remain a concern, maybe not to the point that it has to be, but there will be a bit of cutting our cloth and we won’t be doing that - by brining in 13 players minimum.

Ultimately TFG have decisions to make on the footballing dept - Thelwell I believe is in discussions to stay. While recruitment on staff has gotten assent within the scouting and players support dept.

When it comes to the manager there has to be plan - that’s a decision on structure and philosphey - that feeds into everything from recruitment to playing style. The structure is important and roles to they want a head coach or a manager -Dyche at the moment I believe his role is a manger instead of a coach - his role is fairly similar to Moyes albeit Thelwell is a huge support and they work well together.

It’s a decision TFG have to make and commit to for 3 years. I’ve made my opinion on Dyche clear and my approach to mangers - if you make a decision you commit to it and support to it. We’re doing that with Dyche.

As his contract runs down the club would be absolutely remiss not to look at it - the best candidate should always get the job with the plan at place - how compatible that plan will be Dyche is guarded at the moment. Most will assume Dyche goes, but I’m not sure. I’ve managed a fair degree of change in organisations, you don’t do it all at once, secondly you don’t loose what you have - how owners will look at it is the value he adds, like his football or no, he’s made the business about 240 million managing in adversity in the last 18 months managing through adverse circumstances both seasons, within limits, keeping it in the PL. Then you look at value of the squad. Are the players worth more then when he arrived and is what he added contributed to that value. Can he build on that with more resources. We know the binary element of this thread but the owners will also weigh up the former also and bottom line. Say he finishes 10th this season , is there a different manger to be brought into build toward the top 6 - ifs and buts admittedly.

Ultimately it will come down, philosphey, structure and approach. I wouldn’t presume anything at this point. I had a good luck at Roma and to be honest wasn’t to impressed with their examples of a clear approach or philosphey in recruiting a manager, they had Fonseca when they arrived, then went for Hollywood in Mouthino, then a local club legend with no real pedigree in coaching in De Rossi - replaced him with the Torino coach - none of that points to me as - we have this philosphey and this is definitely they type of manger we like and go for it’s a real variance - which to be honest doesn’t fill me a lot of reassurance,

 

[Neiler]

People are tribal about it, in absolutely ott ways on both sides of the fence. It's an enjoyable view sitting on it.

TBF I’m guilty of stirring it for the craic as anyone.

But we move on - Dyche is here until the end of the season at the very least, unless of a total system failure even then he will get till Jan and there is 0 appetitite amongst existing ownership or 5he new to change mid season - so that part of it is a waste of time.

What’s really interesting is what happens next and how we go about managing that, personally I’m already thinking of the future, via supporting the team - arguing over like him or not is a waste of time and to be honest a bit of a waste time at this stage.

 

[Neiler]

How do you know he isn’t leaving can you read TFG’s mind. No different to me saying as soon as the take over is done he will be sacked. 6 wins in 28 is a sackable offence and he would have gone at the majority of prem clubs

Because it’s a stupid thing to do and I don’t think he’s stupid.

Tell you what let’s see….

 

[Delargeinho]

I would t say form is ok, Leicester we probably should have beat, but could have easily lost to palace and Newcastle

As I say ok, is not good. Newcastle would have deserved 1:0 win.

For me Palace, Leicester and Bmouth were typical 50-50 games, they were pretty even over 90 min. Can get away with 9 points, but also with 0 and both would have been deserved.

So far I think this season the table shows a realistic image of how we played and what we got out of the game, and this is not good enough yet.

 

[Marius57]

So, just to be clear mate, you can have more points then playing the same number of fixtures, but it’s actually -4 in the makey up wishy washey alternative comparrison league!

Totally valid, more valid than the actual table, that says we have more points.

It’s actually fairly cool how you can talk yourself into - 4, from a position of having more points the year before from tougher fixtures.

I’m saying comparing equivalent games is a valid way at looking at our results. And that the poster that did so is correct in saying in that way at looking at fixtures we are worse off.

I’m not saying it’s more important than the actual table. But that pundits and commentators also do the same. Twist my words however you want to suit your agenda though.

 

[Marius57]

As I say ok, is not good. Newcastle would have deserved 1:0 win.

For me Palace, Leicester and Bmouth were typical 50-50 games, they were pretty even over 90 min. Can get away with 9 points, but also with 0 and both would have been deserved.

So far I think this season the table shows a realistic image of how we played and what we got out of the game, and this is not good enough yet.

We could have been 3/4 down by half time vs palace. We scored our 2 shots on target. They had twice as many shots as us and 60% possession.Not sure it was that even.

 

[Neiler]

I’m saying comparing equivalent games is a valid way at looking at our results. And that the poster that did so is correct in saying in that way at looking at fixtures we are worse off.

I’m not saying it’s more important than the actual table. But that pundits and commentators also do the same. Twist my words however you want to suit your agenda though.

Don’t get me started on the Carraghers of this world and Sky mate!

Laughing here, remember everyone loosing their minds on XGC last week - then we kept a clean sheet.

Now dying on hills of the -4 point alternatives league table, despite having more actual real points in the real world table comparatively to the same stage last season after the same number of games.

“We are down four points everywhere, except in the actual real world”!

 

[Marius57]

Don’t get me started on the Carraghers of this world and Sky mate!

Laughing here, remember everyone loosing their minds on XGC last week - then we kept a clean sheet.

Now dying on hills of the -4 point alternatives league table, despite having more actual real points in the real world table comparatively to the same stage last season after the same number of games.

“We are down four points everywhere, except in the actual real world”!

I think looking it corresponding fixtures is fine. You don’t. Whatever.

You conveniently miss teams off when saying last season was easier. So your agenda is clear to all. So with that, I’m done.

 

[Neiler]

I think looking it corresponding fixtures is fine. You don’t. Whatever.

You conveniently miss teams off when saying last season was easier. So your agenda is clear to all. So with that, I’m done.

If we’re making up league tables, because the real one shows an improvement, then no one here is on firm ground making accusations about anyones else’s objectively.

I haven’t mentioned the manager once in the debate over the table - this is the problem with this thread. All objectivity lost based on polarisation. Thus telling someone they have an agenda is lacking in self awareness.

 

[Marius57]

Dyche is crap. Getting 1 point more than one of our worst ever starts that he led us to is also crap.

TFG will get rid.

 

[Haydn]

Personally I don’t think it will be wipeout mate, agree there will be incremental change, but there are issues at play, that tempers the degree of change.

One is the squad, some compromises need to be made, we have 12 players in contract in the summer and we might need to sell a couple of them, no way are we brining in 13-15 players in one window - which would suggest a need for some one year contracts that I feel could be unpopular.

Secondly PSR will remain a concern, maybe not to the point that it has to be, but there will be a bit of cutting our cloth and we won’t be doing that - by brining in 13 players minimum.

Ultimately TFG have decisions to make on the footballing dept - Thelwell I believe is in discussions to stay. While recruitment on staff has gotten assent within the scouting and players support dept.

When it comes to the manager there has to be plan - that’s a decision on structure and philosphey - that feeds into everything from recruitment to playing style. The structure is important and roles to they want a head coach or a manager -Dyche at the moment I believe his role is a manger instead of a coach - his role is fairly similar to Moyes albeit Thelwell is a huge support and they work well together.

It’s a decision TFG have to make and commit to for 3 years. I’ve made my opinion on Dyche clear and my approach to mangers - if you make a decision you commit to it and support to it. We’re doing that with Dyche.

As his contract runs down the club would be absolutely remiss not to look at it - the best candidate should always get the job with the plan at place - how compatible that plan will be Dyche is guarded at the moment. Most will assume Dyche goes, but I’m not sure. I’ve managed a fair degree of change in organisations, you don’t do it all at once, secondly you don’t loose what you have - how owners will look at it is the value he adds, like his football or no, he’s made the business about 240 million managing in adversity in the last 18 months managing through adverse circumstances both seasons, within limits, keeping it in the PL. Then you look at value of the squad. Are the players worth more then when he arrived and is what he added contributed to that value. Can he build on that with more resources. We know the binary element of this thread but the owners will also weigh up the former also and bottom line. Say he finishes 10th this season , is there a different manger to be brought into build toward the top 6 - ifs and buts admittedly.

Ultimately it will come down, philosphey, structure and approach. I wouldn’t presume anything at this point. I had a good luck at Roma and to be honest wasn’t to impressed with their examples of a clear approach or philosphey in recruiting a manager, they had Fonseca when they arrived, then went for Hollywood in Mouthino, then a local club legend with no real pedigree in coaching in De Rossi - replaced him with the Torino coach - none of that points to me as - we have this philosphey and this is definitely they type of manger we like and go for it’s a real variance - which to be honest doesn’t fill me a lot of reassurance,

All valid points, however I think there are obvious aspects of our history that will not have escaped the attention of the new owners.

The first being the rotten culture that has prevailed within the club for so very long. That has to be addressed, before any organisational or personnel changes can succeed.

The one massive opportunity they have to embed that culture change throughout the club, is the move to the new ground. Taking everyone over there and carrying on as we are, will lose them that opportunity.

If they have the funds and the know-how, I could see a cull of everyone in a position of authority, as the priority. As far as Dyche is concerned, his default negative narrative, however justifiable, of how bad things have been, (long before he arrived of course) Has probably marked his card, as someone not to be invited on the bus to Bramley Moore.

I agree that player changes will be governed by FFP rules as much as funding availability. However, even the crap ones that may remain, have to know that they are starting next season on a different planet, not just at a new stadium. That is the only way we stop the cycle of failure.

 

[Neiler]

If only someone would make up a league table to illustrate it!

Getting relegated from the Unicorn league, proudly sponsored by Paw Patrol!

 

[Neiler]

All valid points, however I think there are obvious aspects of our history that will not have escaped the attention of the new owners.

The first being the rotten culture that has prevailed within the club for so very long. That has to be addressed, before any organisational or personnel changes can succeed.

The one massive opportunity they have to embed that culture change throughout the club, is the move to the new ground. Taking everyone over there and carrying on as we are, will lose them that opportunity.

If they have the funds and the know-how, I could see a cull of everyone in a position of authority, as the priority. As far as Dyche is concerned, his default negative narrative, however justifiable, of how bad things have been, (long before he arrived of course) Has probably marked his card, as someone not to be invited on the bus to Bramley Moore.

I agree that player changes will be governed by FFP rules as much as funding availability. However, even the crap ones that may remain, have to know that they are starting next season on a different planet, not just at a new stadium. That is the only way we stop the cycle of failure.

Good post mate.

I think what's needed and what might change are two very different things. There absolutely has to be a change in culture in the organisation and that needs to start at the top and permeate down. Its going to be interesting, a lot of the staff at the club are used to operating in a certain environment and in certain limits with a certain skill set, whether some can adapt or not is interesting. If we take an example of say when Bill was chairman we were run so strigently and had built a club on value - to some reasonable success - that when resource came to the club the skills just weren't there to operate with different resources in different markets and build at a different level and we made an utter mess of it. I think we need to learn those lessons.

Personally i think we will see change at the top to begin with, they will want to do things incrementally i would think over a two year period, too much change can be damaging.

On Dyche i think the opportunity cant be past up to look at it, you need the best candidate always and with the changing land scape, contract situation and opportunity to put a plan in place - you have to look at it. Be a bad organsation that doesn't. I still think he has qualities that will be valued by an owner - namely their bottom line. We as fans just look at one game to the next - the owner looks at it as - hes here 18 months, hes kept us up twice in two very adverse manure shows thats worth 240 mill to me. Or hes brought a kid into the team played him consistently, hes now worth £100 mill to me. He brought that Ndaiye lad in for 14 mill, hes now worth 30 mill to me. I appreciate the job Dyche has done here and will always be grateful to him, im open minded though given whats happening at the club. I dont think change is the slam dunk most people do though.


FFP will be a fine balancing act, the sheer volume of players out of contract creates both opportunity and risk, if Keane, Dom and the Duke leave thats almost 300k a week in wagers freed up. Yet changing 13 players in one window is always a bad idea. While we likely still be operating in margins and cutting cloth. Some balance and compromise is going to have to be found on change and continuity.

One of the things on my mind at the moment is culture on the first team squad - i remember working very hard somewhere bashing my head of a wall trying to change a culture in an orgainsation in short space of time - a bad culture is endemic it gets everywhere management, teams, individuals. A colleague sat me down one day and told me it takes 10 years to really change a culture in an organsiation - they were right. It will take time here, to much change to quickly doesn't help. Most people dont know or dont want to accept they are part of a bad culture.

Its why im in two minds on next steps, particularly on the issue of a coach or a football manager. I think this group of players have always needed a football manager, i don't think you can give them inch and until that collapse culture is kicked out, im not sure we have that flexibility to go without a manager type.

 

[MikeH72]

Needs to deliver some wins in the next few games or we’re in and around the bottom 3 and he’s therefore gone before the next break. Good luck Sean. Don’t want to hear any excuses.

 

[blueboy72]

Personally I don’t think it will be wipeout mate, agree there will be incremental change, but there are issues at play, that tempers the degree of change.

One is the squad, some compromises need to be made, we have 12 players in contract in the summer and we might need to sell a couple of them, no way are we brining in 13-15 players in one window - which would suggest a need for some one year contracts that I feel could be unpopular.

Secondly PSR will remain a concern, maybe not to the point that it has to be, but there will be a bit of cutting our cloth and we won’t be doing that - by brining in 13 players minimum.

Ultimately TFG have decisions to make on the footballing dept - Thelwell I believe is in discussions to stay. While recruitment on staff has gotten assent within the scouting and players support dept.

When it comes to the manager there has to be plan - that’s a decision on structure and philosphey - that feeds into everything from recruitment to playing style. The structure is important and roles to they want a head coach or a manager -Dyche at the moment I believe his role is a manger instead of a coach - his role is fairly similar to Moyes albeit Thelwell is a huge support and they work well together.

It’s a decision TFG have to make and commit to for 3 years. I’ve made my opinion on Dyche clear and my approach to mangers - if you make a decision you commit to it and support to it. We’re doing that with Dyche.

As his contract runs down the club would be absolutely remiss not to look at it - the best candidate should always get the job with the plan at place - how compatible that plan will be Dyche is guarded at the moment. Most will assume Dyche goes, but I’m not sure. I’ve managed a fair degree of change in organisations, you don’t do it all at once, secondly you don’t loose what you have - how owners will look at it is the value he adds, like his football or no, he’s made the business about 240 million managing in adversity in the last 18 months managing through adverse circumstances both seasons, within limits, keeping it in the PL. Then you look at value of the squad. Are the players worth more then when he arrived and is what he added contributed to that value. Can he build on that with more resources. We know the binary element of this thread but the owners will also weigh up the former also and bottom line. Say he finishes 10th this season , is there a different manger to be brought into build toward the top 6 - ifs and buts admittedly.

Ultimately it will come down, philosphey, structure and approach. I wouldn’t presume anything at this point. I had a good luck at Roma and to be honest wasn’t to impressed with their examples of a clear approach or philosphey in recruiting a manager, they had Fonseca when they arrived, then went for Hollywood in Mouthino, then a local club legend with no real pedigree in coaching in De Rossi - replaced him with the Torino coach - none of that points to me as - we have this philosphey and this is definitely they type of manger we like and go for it’s a real variance - which to be honest doesn’t fill me a lot of reassurance,

Well I certain person who knows more than me and you has said that Thelwell and dyche do work together, but they ain’t bussom buddies. Also DCL’s is not interested in staying, because he hates the style of play and does t really see eye to eye with dyche. Unless Everton have a new plan moving forward, then DCL will be off

There massive red flags, good players don’t want to play for dyche, Onana/DCL how many others ? Did good players turn us down because of dyche and the style. He also wasn’t Thelwell’s choice of manager.

If we want to kick on as a club, you can’t Sean dyche as your manager abs my feeling is, he will be lucky to last the season, but there’s not a chance he stays beyond that