Marcelo Bielsa

[Blechnum]

He didn't take them into a death spiral. They had a massive injury list and Leeds didn't refresh the squad as much as he wanted in summer. He transformed their youth set up.

Exactly this - at the time he was sacked, the media narrative quickly became a simplistic "His tactics have been found out" by other managers, but the reality was more nuanced - masses of first team players out injured and growing conflict between owner Radrizzani and Bielsa. Like you say, the youth setup is now in a really good position, with very promising players coming through.

 

[jceverton]

Because he wanted to coach the U21s and have his staff coach the first team.

I love Bielsa, he's brilliant, but i can understand why we'd go for a 'safer' option of having an actual manager.

FWIW though it would have been incredible to see if we were in a better position.

Again, lack of joined-up thinking because if Moshiri wanted him he could have discussed with the board and spoken to him last year, in case they needed to make a change, and then done it during the World Cup.

I don't believe for one minute that he wouldn't work with the first team. This whole story seems typical Everton/Kenwright covering themselves as to why they didn't appoint him. Given the state of the first team and the few days of the transfer window left I believe that he wanted to work with the first team and the U21 over the next 7 weeks to then get the best 11-18 players who could play his system on the pitch. This would inevitably mean more younger players in the first team. Undoubtedly there would be a risk in going down this season but he'd get us back up and we'd be in a better position in the medium term.

Totally agree with you about appointing him after the Bournemouth match. It beggars belief that they didn't make the change then but given their past history no surprise.

 

[jceverton]

More than that in fact - he even coached several of the u10s and u11 teams on his days off. Fully immersed himself in every aspect of the club down to tiny details - e.g. altered the size of staff parking spaces and arranged Christmas raffle for staff (and bought the prizes himself). In the short term, that obsessiveness really paid off for Leeds - remains to be seen whether the owners will continue to build on the changes Bielsa made.

Amazing really, what other manager would do this? It's exactly what we needed. To say I'm depressed about him not coming is a massive understatement.

 

[Yarrgh]

Let it go people. Move on. El Loco is no go.

 

[degsy]

Wasn't that basically Brands thing as well?

 

[BlueToff]

I don't believe for one minute that he wouldn't work with the first team. This whole story seems typical Everton/Kenwright covering themselves as to why they didn't appoint him. Given the state of the first team and the few days of the transfer window left I believe that he wanted to work with the first team and the U21 over the next 7 weeks to then get the best 11-18 players who could play his system on the pitch. This would inevitably mean more younger players in the first team. Undoubtedly there would be a risk in going down this season but he'd get us back up and we'd be in a better position in the medium term.

Totally agree with you about appointing him after the Bournemouth match. It beggars belief that they didn't make the change then but given their past history no surprise.

I don't think you know enough about Bielsa then.

He has never taken over a European team mid-season. The only reason he was considering B'mouth was because of the World Cup break.

He is a man of principal and does not bend to that for money. He was literally sued by Lazio for leaving when it became apparent they wouldn't fulfil their promises to him.

They call him El Loco for a reason, mate.

 

[BlueToff]

Wasn't that basically Brands thing as well?

Bielsa actually does it by rebuilding the playing style though.

 

[riddick]

Could imagine there were certain board members that would've been terrified of him coming in

Ok, this has made me a bit sad. Right coach at the wrong time but it just highlights how awful our board are at being proactive instead of reactive.

 

[degsy]

I believe we will get him regardless in the future

Once he gets a bee in his bonnet, like with Silva...Moshiri...so he has the illusion of long term credibility with the players (in as far as anybody is long term here) will tell Dyche - Yep; 2.5yrs mate, sorted.
Then W, L or D, bring in Bielsa in June.

 

[ClausThomsen]

He didn't take them into a death spiral. They had a massive injury list and Leeds didn't refresh the squad as much as he wanted in summer. He transformed their youth set up.

The massive injury list and Bielsa's style of play and intensity of training aren't completely unrelated.

Also last year, Leeds midfielder Kalvin Phillips told the Times: “Murderball's mental. I'm used to it now but for new players that have come in like Robin [Koch], Rafael [Raphinha], Diego [Llorente] after the training session they were looking around, as if to say, 'What have we just done?’
"We got three or four coaches in the middle screaming, plus the manager. Say a ball goes out, they're screaming at you, 'Get the ball back in,' 'play.' It's 100mph. I could clatter you, no foul, play on. People fly into tackles, I've done it.
“I've been angry because the manager's shouting my name and I've seen the ball, and gone to tackle somebody, and then thought, 'I should calm down now because somebody's going to get hurt here.’”

-----

Kemar Roofe, now at Rangers, said: “We ended up giving it the nickname murderball because it just killed everybody, physically. It was very tiring, non-stop running.
"There were no fouls. Everyone got kicked. Everyone gave it out, taking a yellow card for the team when you're having to chase someone down and you clip them from behind, tactical fouls, just to stop the attack.”

-----

Leeds midfielder Jack Harrison told the Telegraph last year: “It's three days before the game and it's the most intense training session we do. If you are defending, you have to do it to your maximum. If you are attacking, it's the same.

“It doesn't stop. If the ball goes out, it comes straight back, there are basically no fouls, virtually no offsides. You play and continue playing and it's on a full-sized pitch, back and forth.

-----

I can see the sense in short high intensity sessions like that but if you're playing in one of the fastest leagues in the world with a traditionally congested fixture list made a lot worse with the after-effects of the Covid shutdown and the previous season and the necessary rescheduling from further Covid related call-offs then there's no denying that such methods will contribute to injuries and fatigue.

And in terms of form and staying up they were undoubtedly in a death spiral regardless of how many debuts he handed out.

 

[Swartzy]

The massive injury list and Bielsa's style of play and intensity of training aren't completely unrelated.

Also last year, Leeds midfielder Kalvin Phillips told the Times: “Murderball's mental. I'm used to it now but for new players that have come in like Robin [Koch], Rafael [Raphinha], Diego [Llorente] after the training session they were looking around, as if to say, 'What have we just done?’
"We got three or four coaches in the middle screaming, plus the manager. Say a ball goes out, they're screaming at you, 'Get the ball back in,' 'play.' It's 100mph. I could clatter you, no foul, play on. People fly into tackles, I've done it.
“I've been angry because the manager's shouting my name and I've seen the ball, and gone to tackle somebody, and then thought, 'I should calm down now because somebody's going to get hurt here.’”

-----

Kemar Roofe, now at Rangers, said: “We ended up giving it the nickname murderball because it just killed everybody, physically. It was very tiring, non-stop running.
"There were no fouls. Everyone got kicked. Everyone gave it out, taking a yellow card for the team when you're having to chase someone down and you clip them from behind, tactical fouls, just to stop the attack.”

-----

Leeds midfielder Jack Harrison told the Telegraph last year: “It's three days before the game and it's the most intense training session we do. If you are defending, you have to do it to your maximum. If you are attacking, it's the same.

“It doesn't stop. If the ball goes out, it comes straight back, there are basically no fouls, virtually no offsides. You play and continue playing and it's on a full-sized pitch, back and forth.

-----

I can see the sense in short high intensity sessions like that but if you're playing in one of the fastest leagues in the world with a traditionally congested fixture list made a lot worse with the after-effects of the Covid shutdown and the previous season and the necessary rescheduling from further Covid related call-offs then there's no denying that such methods will contribute to injuries and fatigue.

And in terms of form and staying up they were undoubtedly in a death spiral regardless of how many debuts he handed out.

Send that list to the medical department...

Also one thing with Bielsa is he likes working with smaller squads, so how his footballing philosophy, with a small squad could ever be attainable in the premiership just isn't realistic.

Unless he adapted certain aspects of his approach. I mean we do have 5 subs now if he worked with a bigger squad.

Again though it would be a long time set up and you are guaranteed to go backwards before you will ever move forwards.
We don't have that time now...

 

[wabisabi]

Send that list to the medical department...

Also one thing with Bielsa is he likes working with smaller squads, so how his footballing philosophy, with a small squad could ever be attainable in the premiership just isn't realistic.

Unless he adapted certain aspects of his approach. I mean we do have 5 subs now if he worked with a bigger squad.

Again though it would be a long time set up and you are guaranteed to go backwards before you will ever move forwards.
We don't have that time now...

My hope would have been that Bielsa did not have adapted his methods at all if he'd come to us. In fact. I'd hope he gave way to his most radical urges. To tear everything up, dismantle this place and all its tired structures, root and branch. Rip them all up totally. There is clearly something very very very rotten in the state of Everton. It is only a thoroughly ruthless purging process that will rid it of the recent years of malaise. Sorry to be coming over all inquisition-like but perhaps Señor B and his hand grenades could have been just the tonic to properly rid us of our afflictions. My fear with Dyche is that we have just plumbed again for the old 'make do' mediocrity that has oiled our sad decline.

 

[jceverton]

I don't think you know enough about Bielsa then.

He has never taken over a European team mid-season. The only reason he was considering B'mouth was because of the World Cup break.

He is a man of principal and does not bend to that for money. He was literally sued by Lazio for leaving when it became apparent they wouldn't fulfil their promises to him.

They call him El Loco for a reason, mate.

I know plenty about Bielsa, i've followed his career for ages and am fully aware that he is a man of principle. But this leak to the press that he was only going to work with the U21's is pure spin on behalf of Kenwright and Co to justify the decision to go with Dyche. He used to work with the U21's at Leeds as well as the first team. I think he's looked at the situation, the time left in the transfer window, the state of the current squad and come up with a plan to get the best 18-20 players in the 1st team squad and the U21's to play his system. The only way he can do that is work heavily with the U21's as well as the first team. That means he needs to take charge of the U21's and coach them as well as work with the 1st team. I think it's pure spin to say that he was only going to work with the U21's and not work with the 1st team. Bielsa wouldn't have flown here if he wasn't going to take the job, but he wanted to do it on his own terms. The fact that the Everton board have chosen mediocrity in the form of Dyche instead of the transformation of the footballing side of the club under a genuine world class coach is the most depressing, but unsurprising, decision of Kenwright's reign on the board.

 

[KindofBlue]

Hiring him and accepting his vision to tear it all down and start over would have meant the board admitting they are completely inept and incompetent, and the players they bought have been largely garbage which is something we all know to be true, but being who they are they will never accept or admit.

I do think we would have gone down under him this year, just not enough time to get these players playing his way, but this club does need to be blown up culturally and start over. I always assumed nothing but the best meant style of play as well as commitment, character and effort. Bielsa could have been the foundation of that cultural reset we so need even if we wasn't here at the end to see the fruits of his labour.

I hope we get him at some point.

 

[BlueToff]

I know plenty about Bielsa, i've followed his career for ages and am fully aware that he is a man of principle. But this leak to the press that he was only going to work with the U21's is pure spin on behalf of Kenwright and Co to justify the decision to go with Dyche. He used to work with the U21's at Leeds as well as the first team. I think he's looked at the situation, the time left in the transfer window, the state of the current squad and come up with a plan to get the best 18-20 players in the 1st team squad and the U21's to play his system. The only way he can do that is work heavily with the U21's as well as the first team. That means he needs to take charge of the U21's and coach them as well as work with the 1st team. I think it's pure spin to say that he was only going to work with the U21's and not work with the 1st team. Bielsa wouldn't have flown here if he wasn't going to take the job, but he wanted to do it on his own terms. The fact that the Everton board have chosen mediocrity in the form of Dyche instead of the transformation of the footballing side of the club under a genuine world class coach is the most depressing, but unsurprising, decision of Kenwright's reign on the board.

Yes, he did, I know this. But he did not just go in and take charge of Leeds midway through a season.

I'd have loved Bielsa. but the timing just wasn't right with this squad, let's face it. That's away from anything about U21s.

He'd have been exciting, for sure. I'm not enamoured by any appointment though because this squad is crap.