Who’s the GOAT?

[Jamo Martinez]

Maradona.
Pele was undoubtedly brilliant but I will be that guy who questions him for not playing in a better league.

Tbf, back when Pele was playing, South American teams used to regularly beat European teams in the intercontinental cup. The ridiculous difference in finances between Europe and South America that we see today simply didn't exist.

Nowadays, anyone half decent in South America is snapped up by the European teams when they're young. Back then that wasn't generally the case so the Brazilian, Argentinian and Uruguayan leagues were easily as competitive as any in Europe

Back then the Ballon D'Or was for the European footballer of the year. If it had been for the world's best player like today, Pele probably would have won as many as Messi and Ronaldo or possibly more.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

I love how every anecdote about McGrath being ballooned the night before a game always ends with:

'And the next day, he was man of the match.'

And he actually was!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Agree with this. No way on earth that the Portuguese national team would have achieved all that they have in World Cup's / Euros since 2006 without Ronaldo being the driving force behind the team.

Conversely, a more talented Argentinian side over the same time period have underwhelmed, and in particular Messi has rarely fronted for his country.

Messi has more football talent, but in a backs-to-the-wall situation you'd want Cristiano in your corner.

Massive selective memory there. The Euros that Portugal won saw the team draw with Iceland, Austria, and Hungary, which put them third in that stellar group and hugely fortunate to get through. They then beat Croatia 1-0 after extra time, Poland on penalties and Wales in the semi-finals. You wouldn't class any of those teams they struggled against as top tier, and Ronaldo was subbed off in the final after 25 minutes with the score 0-0. In the entire tournament Ronaldo scored 3 times, two against Hungary in a drawn game and once against Wales in the semis. He has dragged them through numerous games, but that tournament wasn't an example of it.

It's actually been shown that in big games, Messi actually scores more times than Ronaldo, and assists significantly more. In Euro 2016, Nani actually got as many goals as Ronaldo, yet we don't say Nani dragged a poor team to victory, do we?

 

[Chris O'Connor]

Fred Geary our midget centre forward and top goalscorer in our first ever (1890/91) championship winning team - our home ground was still Anfield then.

Fred set the standard which Dixie, Tommy Lawton, Joe Royle, Latch, Sharp, Gray, Lineker, Big Dunc and DCL have followed.

When Liverpool were founded in 1892 and we moved from Anfield, Fred left and joined them, the rat. Don't bear grudges but never forgiven him since.

 

[Tommy.]

Tbf, back when Pele was playing, South American teams used to regularly beat European teams in the intercontinental cup. The ridiculous difference in finances between Europe and South America that we see today simply didn't exist.

Nowadays, anyone half decent in South America is snapped up by the European teams when they're young. Back then that wasn't generally the case so the Brazilian, Argentinian and Uruguayan leagues were easily as competitive as any in Europe

Back then the Ballon D'Or was for the European footballer of the year. If it had been for the world's best player like today, Pele probably would have won as many as Messi and Ronaldo or possibly more.

You're quite right mate; turns out I had my head twisted on how soon he want to the Cosmos.

Think a large portion of my leanings towards Maradona is also due to watching him as a young lad and being all starry eyed which is of course, incredibly subjective.

Fair to say a strong case could be put forward for any of the 4 on that list.

 

[TheBigIguana]

Agree with this. No way on earth that the Portuguese national team would have achieved all that they have in World Cup's / Euros since 2006 without Ronaldo being the driving force behind the team.

Conversely, a more talented Argentinian side over the same time period have underwhelmed, and in particular Messi has rarely fronted for his country.

Messi has more football talent, but in a backs-to-the-wall situation you'd want Cristiano in your corner.

Is Argentina really that talented nowadays? I mean they've had good attackers like Aguero, Di Maria, etc. but midfield was basically automatically picking Mascherano even when he played in China and at CB the best guy has been Otamendi. That's not amazing. Portugal have a decent side.

 

[Thomasc]

Voted for Diego.
Just because of his World Cup record and what he did at unfashionable Napoli.
Skill wise him and Messi are probably quite similar.

 

[Toffee in Jandals]

Massive selective memory there. The Euros that Portugal won saw the team draw with Iceland, Austria, and Hungary, which put them third in that stellar group and hugely fortunate to get through. They then beat Croatia 1-0 after extra time, Poland on penalties and Wales in the semi-finals. You wouldn't class any of those teams they struggled against as top tier, and Ronaldo was subbed off in the final after 25 minutes with the score 0-0. In the entire tournament Ronaldo scored 3 times, two against Hungary in a drawn game and once against Wales in the semis. He has dragged them through numerous games, but that tournament wasn't an example of it.

It's actually been shown that in big games, Messi actually scores more times than Ronaldo, and assists significantly more. In Euro 2016, Nani actually got as many goals as Ronaldo, yet we don't say Nani dragged a poor team to victory, do we?

They still won the Euros that year though, didn't they? I could equally make the same argument that Portugal were unlucky to be drawn against top-tier teams in the final rounds of the 2006 World Cup (Netherlands, England, France) two of whom they defeated on their way to the semi-finals.

And in the 2010 and 2014 World Cup's, they were unfortunate enough to be drawn against the eventual in-form champions early on in their campaigns (Spain in the Round of 16 in 2010, Germany in a tough group in 2014).

The luck of the draw in tournament football has a massive amount to do with how deep into the tournament you can go.

 

[Jamo Martinez]

They still won the Euros that year though, didn't they? I could equally make the same argument that Portugal were unlucky to be drawn against top-tier teams in the final rounds of the 2006 World Cup (Netherlands, England, France) two of whom they defeated on their way to the semi-finals.

And in the 2010 and 2014 World Cup's, they were unfortunate enough to be drawn against the eventual in-form champions early on in their campaigns (Spain in the Round of 16 in 2010, Germany in a tough group in 2014).

The luck of the draw in tournament football has a massive amount to do with how deep into the tournament you can go.

Exactly. And Argentina were only beaten by the winners in the WC final in 2014 and 2 consecutive Copa America finals.

If Maradona had been born in Equador instead of Argentina (with exactly the same ability, obviously) he would never have won the WC. The same could be said of Pele.

I've always regarded Platini as better than Zidane but people lñook at Zidane's WC win.

 

[Argentina Racing]

DIEGO MARADONA

 

[kingduncan]

I am randomly watching some youtube vid of Messi's best goals and there have already been 2 free kicks in the top 10 and neither are anything that Baines hasn't done for Everton plenty of times. Not saying Messi is not totally amazing but people really have a tendency to go over the top!

 

[kingduncan]

Diego gets my vote due to pure talent, the guy abused his body and still managed to be obscenely good. #2 Is Cristiano because as talented as he is/was the work he put into improving even when he was already great should be an inspiration to any young player.

 

[TraffordBlue]

I am randomly watching some youtube vid of Messi's best goals and there have already been 2 free kicks in the top 10 and neither are anything that Baines hasn't done for Everton plenty of times. Not saying Messi is not totally amazing but people really have a tendency to go over the top!

How many of them has Messi scored overall and in big games though?

I actually thought Baines had more for us than he did. Was looking the other week, think he only got about 7 as I was surprised he wasn't on the list for best Premier League free kick takers. Think they only included those with more than 10.

 

[kingduncan]

How many of them has Messi scored overall and in big games though?

I actually thought Baines had more for us than he did. Was looking the other week, think he only got about 7 as I was surprised he wasn't on the list for best Premier League free kick takers. Think they only included those with more than 10.

That I cannot answer. Maybe he has an amazing conversion rate. As I said before I am not talking down Messi, I was just watching some youtube of his best 50 goals and are a lot of freekicks that Baines scored or any other. I was disapointed.

I am not sure I have a definitive opinion on who is the GOAT but when I watch a top 50 video I expect a little more than a bunch of freekicks.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That I cannot answer. Maybe he has an amazing conversion rate. As I said before I am not talking down Messi, I was just watching some youtube of his best 50 goals and are a lot of freekicks that Baines scored or any other. I was disapointed.

I am not sure I have a definitive opinion on who is the GOAT but when I watch a top 50 video I expect a little more than a bunch of freekicks.

I just watched one and of 50 (of his near 700 goals), 8 of them were free kicks, so 42 were not. Incidentally, about 8% of Messi's goals are from free kicks. Nearly 20% of Maradona's were.