What is 'success' for Everton?

[alpha1]

For me a club is judged on what honours it has won. Honours are made up of trophies. Therefore, we must try to win trophies, and as much as I would like to say we can challenge for the league - we just can't at present so I would have to say that winning a cup should be our priority and what I would call a success.
Qualifying for Europe is great but when remembering a club it is the silverware you remember, not the league positions.
#callmeoldfashioned

 

[roydo]

If martinez leaves this club without winning a trophy, he's a failure.

Christ, thats harsh mate. Gets a CL semi final, or final for that matter for example, couldnt be seen as failure, surely?

But I guess, in the literal sense of the word, it would be. Still harsh though.

 

[Cookachoo]

Success would be a top 7 finish in the league and / or getting far in the cup. Would love another Wembley trip and the draw has certainly been kind to us.

I fear we just don't have the ability to outlast any of City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd or Spurs in the league though. And to think this time last month, an awful lot of blues saw us as genuine top four contenders - quite frankly we would require a miracle to finish above THREE of those teams with this current team.

Our squad depth is poor and is something Roberto will have to focus on if we are to push on next year, particularly as most of the loaners Barry, Lukaku, Deulofeu and Traore more than likely won't be here and we will receive no ROI. We were always going to get found out in the latter part of the season when injuries inevitably hit, and every teams resources are stretched to the limit.

 

[Groucho]

Any recognised trophy.

League cup
FA cup
League title
European trophy

 

[Allezfan]

Christ, thats harsh mate. Gets a CL semi final, or final for that matter for example, couldnt be seen as failure, surely?

But I guess, in the literal sense of the word, it would be. Still harsh though.

Have to score when you're on top, mate.

If we're ever good enough to reach a Cl final and still never win a single trophy then that is a failure, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Azzurri]

Not having a go at the poll as you've got to I suppose (please don't smite me overlord) but it's a sad time when Top 10 finish is even considered for a poll like this about Everton.

 

[roydo]

Have to score when you're on top, mate.

If we're ever good enough to reach a Cl final and still never win a single trophy then that is a failure, as far as I'm concerned.

Fair enough mate.

 

[Cookachoo]

Not having a go at the poll as you've got to I suppose (please don't smite me overlord) but it's a sad time when Top 10 finish is even considered for a poll like this about Everton.

Top 10 doesn't mean tenth though mate...

The fact is if we were to finish above any of the current top 5 or United it would be a success. In that respect, 7th wouldn't be a terrible season. Which isn't usually good enough for European Qualification unless both cups are won by top four teams.

 

[Ihaters]

If martinez leaves this club without winning a trophy, he's a failure.

Disagree, as long as he leaves us stronger than he took over then he has not failed. Becoming the team we once were with no financial backing will take decades of small progress... As long as we are improving beyond our means he is succeeding beyond reasonable expectation which would be to go backwards.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Europa League and a good cup run. Not bad for Martinez's first season no?

 

[njligernj]

I think it's important to make a distinction between what we would enjoy more v. what is actually best for the long-term health of the club. They may not be the same thing ... in this case I don't think they are.

You might enjoy a Cup win more than a good league showing -- we probably all would. We've done the "would you rather" on FA Cup v. CL I'd say at least 178 times on this board and a Cup usually wins. This is asking how you'd measure success/progress. While I might enjoy winning a Cup more than making the CL I think it would be a greater sign of success/progress for the club to make the CL.

Lots of one-off Cup winners who went on to do nothing else of note in the next 10-20 years. Wigan's season last year was likely hugely enjoyable with the Cup win ... but also hard to consider it a resounding success all things considered. While their fans no doubt loved a Cup win -- if they spend the next few years in the lower leagues it will obviously mean that Prem survival was more important (but not more enjoyable) for the club than winning a Cup.

Summary: Heart - Cup; Head - CL?

 

[Allezfan]

You would enjoy a Cup win more than a good league showing -- we probably all would. We've done the "would you rather" on FA Cup v. CL I'd say at least 178 times on this board and a Cup usually wins. This is asking how you'd measure success/progress. While I would enjoy winning a Cup more than making the CL I think it would be a greater sign of success/progress for the club to make the CL.

Lots of one-off Cup winners who went on to do nothing else of note in the next 10-20 years. Wigan's season last year was likely hugely enjoyable with the Cup win ... but also hard to consider it a resounding success all things considered. While their fans no doubt loved a Cup win -- if they spend the next 20 years in the lower leagues it will obviously mean that Prem survival was more important (but not more enjoyable) for the club than winning a Cup.

But football clubs are in the entertainment business, so you can't separate fans happiness from the club's goals.

Success is making the fans happy, failure is making them miserable.

 

[njligernj]

But football clubs are in the entertainment business, so you can't separate fans happiness from the club's goals. Success is making the fans happy, failure is making them miserable.

Sure but you could easily argue making the CL would mean more to long-term happiness than winning an FA Cup.

Reality 1: We win the FA Cup this year. What are our odds of winning the FA Cup next year? What are our odds of making the CL next year? What are odds of attracting/affording higher quality players than will improve our odds of winning trophies in the future? (We've had Europa before and it may slightly improve players who will sign but basically it's not much money and not much prestige v. CL.)

Reality 2: We lose in the FA Cup final but qualify for CL (and make group stages). What are our odds of winning the FA Cup next year? What are our odds of making the CL next year? What are odds of attracting/affording higher quality players than will improve our odds of winning trophies in the future?

Reality 2 would mean a much higher chance of CL and future Cup wins IMO. Reality 1 we have a Cup in the hand (v. two in the bush) but really we have no better chance of future success than we have right now. I think reality 2 is worth the gamble and we'd end up winning more long-term ... others may disagree but I think it's a close argument rather than just blindly grabbing the Cup now (as attractive as that may be).

But I don't think, even if you are using pleasure as the sole measuring stick, you can dismiss CL (v. Cup now) so quickly.

 

[Timak]

I honestly can't see us ever finishing higher than 4th without a massive financial transformation of the club.
We have got to the point where 7th is not seen as a success when in purely financial terms it is. We are beating every other club with a similar budget.
Finishing above 7th involves finishing above one of the 6 teams who spend over twice what we do each year.

Put it this way, Liverpool, who we have gained the same amount of points as in the last 2.5 seasons have a £16m annual sponsorship deal in place for their training kit. We get £3m a year for our first team strip.

The best money this club could spend would be getting someone in who knows how to get these type of deals. Robert Elstone is an accountant not a commercial manager.

 

[UFO]

For crying out loud! Qualifying for something doesn't mean you're successful. That's just money talk. We've already "qualified" for participation in the Premiership, FA & League Cups. Until you win one of them, you are NOT successful in that Season. Same applies to Champions/Europa Leagues. Qualification for something does not appear on our Honours Board nor in any history books. I really wish people would stop this qualification equals success nonsense - this shouldn't be the mindset of Evertonians (check out our Club motto!).