What can be done?

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ToxtethBlue said:
I just don't see how Rodwell and Fellaini will work unless it's a home game against an average side. Against a good, experienced side I think they'd get taught a real lesson.

Rodwell is a kid, very talented but he's going to have good days and bad games because he's really young, he needs someone alongside him who's vocal and can keep him on his toes.

Alongside Arteta or Neville he's fine, both players support him, cover for him and help him through games. Fellaini will not do that, he doesn't speak English and he's very laid back. He isn't going to chase balls down, get stuck in and hold his position. That's not Fellaini and I think we all know that. That and the fact that he's never given a solid 90 minutes as an out and out central midfielder.

Rodwell would be left with an awful lot of defensive duties, he's isn't experienced enough to cope with that much responsibility. Fellaini on the other hand will have to take the Arteta role up and try and create, he proved last week and in the games he's played in the middle that he is not a creative midfielder and that's not his game.

Maybe if Cahill played alongside them it would be fine but Cahill plays closer to the striker than he does to the centre mids.
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Well perhaps blindly im to much of a Fellaini fan, clearly the midfeild was seriously unbalanced tonight and quite ineffective. To have Nev in there requires the exact opposite style of player to him, only a player as creative as Arteta can balance out the frailites in his game, like you say Rodders has talent but will have good days and bad.

Theres no passage through our play centrally no link between turning over play from defence to foundation of attack to attack centrally. Neville chooses the simple option all the time which is fair enough as he is a defender after all and doesnt have the skill in carrying the ball, nor the techniuqe or vision to spot a run/space and hit a searching pass.

Rooders has techniuque and vison but what he doesnt have is consistency, expierence nor the confidence to do it in every game nor should he be expected to, he is very much a pass and move player also.

How each of these styles and the combination of the two translates into reality is that if either Neville or Rodwell is closed down in the centre they find it hard to retain poscession, equally if opposing players close down options in terms of others to pass to they are equally miffed in terms of distribution. What we saw tonight were both bossed out of midfield for exactly the resaons i have stated. Subsequently by passed for most of the game, because the defence knew they were getting no joy playing it through the midfield which meant the only form of respite or attacking threat came either by hoofing the ball, or getting it out to the wings, or hoping for a set peice.


Ok they provide somewhat of a shield for the back four. But i want to make the point that we have a more then managable fixture list and our defence has been in outstanding form since really the first eight games and F it weve a gap between us and the teams behind and an almost equal gap to the team ahead of us, why not open it up a little, its about winning games from this point onwards.

I know many arent as big Mofro fans as me, but he is the only player in our current squad who has the ability, and confidence to be a ball carrier through the centre he can pick the ball up of the defence, retain pocession, lay it of and get into the box and he isnt afraid for the ball to pass through the midfield. Rodders can work of him and surely some kind of system can be devised to also protect the back four, key word here coaching and management. What he also offers is pressence, we were bossed out of it physically tonight in midfield and thats that really! Whatever you think about his disciplinary record players know they have been in a game. My only concern with him isnt abilty, injury or can he and rodders play in the same team and can he cover defesively. In all honesty my only concern is about his head psychologicly hes getting increaseingly wound up about decosns not going his way or the amount of bookngs hes picked up, and its seriously having an impact on is natural game, for me this is the reason why many of his performences lately havnt been what they were pre suspension.

But IMO its the only option for us going forward.
 
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Neiler said:
Well perhaps blindly im to much of a Fellaini fan, clearly the midfeild was seriously unbalanced tonight and quite ineffective. To have Nev in there requires the exact opposite style of player to him, only a player as creative as Arteta can balance out the frailites in his game, like you say Rodders has talent but will have good days and bad.

Theres no passage through our play centrally no link between turning over play from defence to foundation of attack to attack centrally. Neville chooses the simple option all the time which is fair enough as he is a defender after all and doesnt have the skill in carrying the ball, nor the techniuqe or vision to spot a run/space and hit a searching pass.

Rooders has techniuque and vison but what he doesnt have is consistency, expierence nor the confidence to do it in every game nor should he be expected to, he is very much a pass and move player also.

How each of these styles and the combination of the two translates into reality is that if either Neville or Rodwell is closed down in the centre they find it hard to retain poscession, equally if opposing players close down options in terms of others to pass to they are equally miffed in terms of distribution. What we saw tonight were both bossed out of midfield for exactly the resaons i have stated. Subsequently by passed for most of the game, because the defence knew they were getting no joy playing it through the midfield which meant the only form of respite or attacking threat came either by hoofing the ball, or getting it out to the wings, or hoping for a set peice.


Ok they provide somewhat of a shield for the back four. But i want to make the point that we have a more then managable fixture list and our defence has been in outstanding form since really the first eight games and F it weve a gap between us and the teams behind and an almost equal gap to the team ahead of us, why not open it up a little, its about winning games from this point onwards.

I know many arent as big Mofro fans as me, but he is the only player in our current squad who has the ability, and confidence to be a ball carrier through the centre he can pick the ball up of the defence, retain pocession, lay it of and get into the box and he isnt afraid for the ball to pass through the midfield. Rodders can work of him and surely some kind of system can be devised to also protect the back four, key word here coaching and management. What he also offers is pressence, we were bossed out of it physically tonight in midfield and thats that really! Whatever you think about his disciplinary record players know they have been in a game. My only concern with him isnt abilty, injury or can he and rodders play in the same team and can he cover defesively. In all honesty my only concern is about his head psychologicly hes getting increaseingly wound up about decosns not going his way or the amount of bookngs hes picked up, and its seriously having an impact on is natural game, for me this is the reason why many of his performences lately havnt been what they were pre suspension.

But IMO its the only option for us going forward.
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There’s a difference between keeping the ball and being creative, Fellaini can keep the ball and he’s not afraid to look for it but he’s never going to open a team up, make us tick or work a bit of magic. He simply controls the ball and keeps it moving, that’s our main problem, we have to many players who keep it simple and don’t take responsibility. Neville can do that all day for you, pass it sideways, backwards, into feet and very simple.

Fellaini doesn’t run with the ball, he doesn’t even change direction when he has the ball. He passes the way he’s facing, in other words he doesn’t get on the ball enough to be our creative spark. That’s not criticising him it’s just not his game, he’s just a keep it simple type of midfielder. The West Brom game summed that up for me, we struggled because Fellaini and Neville do the same things when they have the ball and we become one dimensional.

Arteta----------Carsley----------Osman----------Pienaar

That was our midfield for the majority of last season, we played our best football when that was the midfield four with Cahill playing just in behind Yak. For me Osman is the best option, he’s a different player in the middle that he is on the wing. He gets on the ball in his natural surroundings and does a good job. I’m not talking about as a holding midfielder like he played at the start of the season, I’m talking about playing him as an attacking midfielder next to Neville.

He gets on the ball, he runs with it and he’s intelligent. That’s what we need right now, someone who’s willing to take those extra touches in midfield and give us an attacking outlet. He’d also help Pienaar aswell, getting two creative players close together would improve the football, it was the case last season and it’s was the same this season when Arteta into the middle. At the moment we’ve got our two most creative players playing at the opposite ends of the pitch, there’s no link up play there.

Fellaini may be a physical player in the air, he’s a handful. In terms of tackling, harrying and tenacity though he’s a lightweight. He’s too laid back for that sort of game. He isn’t going to get stuck into opposition midfielders, he may trip them up and pull them back but that’s not the same thing. He’s not the answer for me.

Our main problem is the lack of movement, link up play and creativity. Getting the likes of Osman, Pienaar and Baines closer together is the best way to go.
 
ToxtethBlue said:
Against a good, experienced side I think they'd get taught a real lesson.
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A REAL LESSON.

My solution, that no one seems to have mentioned yet, is do what Moyes did when he brought Saha on. That was Timmy "I'll do anything" Cahill dropping in and chilling out in central midfield starting moves. He's in good form at the moment, looks a lot fitter, I reckon he could handle playing a deeper role. Then with either Fellaini playing in his position behindd Jo, or Saha and Jo up front, he can be the one to get the ball off Neville and do something with it. I thought we looked a lot better in possession in those last however many minutes it was.

What a truly terrible game tho, it's a good job our defence can just lock up a 0-0 like that or we'd be in big trouble. Back to shouting the ball into the net at Goodison for our wins then.
 

Blackburn were always going to be difficult as they're setup to bruise a team like ours. I think we need Osman in the middle though as neither Neville or Rodwell can open teams up through the middle and it seems overkill to have two holding midfielders. I won't write us off after one performance. Looking at the catching Villa thread I don't think many predicted they would lose yesterday so we've gained a point on them and they still have to go to OT and the RS so will drop more points.
 
Brownie said:
A REAL LESSON.

My solution, that no one seems to have mentioned yet, is do what Moyes did when he brought Saha on. That was Timmy "I'll do anything" Cahill dropping in and chilling out in central midfield starting moves. He's in good form at the moment, looks a lot fitter, I reckon he could handle playing a deeper role. Then with either Fellaini playing in his position behindd Jo, or Saha and Jo up front, he can be the one to get the ball off Neville and do something with it. I thought we looked a lot better in possession in those last however many minutes it was.

What a truly terrible game tho, it's a good job our defence can just lock up a 0-0 like that or we'd be in big trouble. Back to shouting the ball into the net at Goodison for our wins then.
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I wouldn't mind Cahill in there, he atleast provides a bit of energy and agression. We improved when he moved centrally, without a doubt.

I still think Osman's the man though, simply because he's the only one who's ever played the role consistently and proved he can do a job next to a defensive midfielder.
 
ToxtethBlue said:
I wouldn't mind Cahill in there, he atleast provides a bit of energy and agression. We improved when he moved centrally, without a doubt.

I still think Osman's the man though, simply because he's the only one who's ever played the role consistently and proved he can do a job next to a defensive midfielder.
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I like the way Phil Neville just IS our defensive mid now. We just need Ossie to start playing really well all of a sudden don't we, would solve a lot of problems. I wish Moyesy had told Rodders to run with it today, he didn't try to attack at all, must have been instructions surely.
 
I think 5-3-2 or 3-5-2 could be good formation for us with all of the injuries we have, but I can't see Moyes using it. 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 are not working right now, we just don't the have the personnel to play those formation so maybe a 4-3-2-1 or a 4-3-1-2 could work for us:

---------------Howard----------------
--Hibbert----Jags---Lescott---Baines--
-----Neville----Fellaini----Pienaar------
----------Cahill-------Osman----------
----------------Saha-----------------

or

----------------Osman----------------
-----------Cahill-------Saha-----------


Those would be the players I would choose, but If some of you might want to drop MoFro or Osman or Hibbert feel free to give your opinion, I'm just suggesting the formation really.
 
Too much fuss has been made over the loss of Arteta. Anyone reading some of the posts would believe us to be fans of the RS. Ok, losing Mikel was a big blow but we are no one man team and have coped without the Spaniard before this latest set back. Us blues make no excuses, the lads out on the playing field all pull together and work extremely hard and will continue to do so without Arteta, Yakubu and Vaughan etc etc. Although the lad is young and inexperienced, i would hand a playmaking role to Rodwell and see what strings he can pull or would that be asking too much of the lad??
 

steevie said:
Too much fuss has been made over the loss of Arteta. Anyone reading some of the posts would believe us to be fans of the RS. Ok, losing Mikel was a big blow but we are no one man team and have coped without the Spaniard before this latest set back. Us blues make no excuses, the lads out on the playing field all pull together and work extremely and will continue to do so without Arteta, Yakubu and Vaughan etc etc. Although the lad is young and inexperienced, i would hand a playmaking role to Rodwell and see what strings he can pull or would that be asking too much of the lad??
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Did you not see his passing last night? He made Neville look like Ronaldinho
 
steevie said:
Too much fuss has been made over the loss of Arteta. Anyone reading some of the posts would believe us to be fans of the RS. Ok, losing Mikel was a big blow but we are no one man team and have coped without the Spaniard before this latest set back. Us blues make no excuses, the lads out on the playing field all pull together and work extremely hard and will continue to do so without Arteta, Yakubu and Vaughan etc etc. Although the lad is young and inexperienced, i would hand a playmaking role to Rodwell and see what strings he can pull or would that be asking too much of the lad??
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No, it hasn't.

It was clear to see yesterday how much we miss Mikel. He's vital to us, by far our most important player in his new role.
 
steevie said:
Yes but it was on a night when most under performed. Did you see his passing against Liverpool at Goodison in our 1-0 triumph?? Did not give the ball away once.
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He is no playmaker mate, he is a converted centre half who can play a bit. It would have to be Ossie or Cornrows taking that role on
 

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