Current Affairs War on Socialism

[magicjuan]

Are you suggesting cronyism is a problem in this country?

cro¦ny|ism

[ˈkrəʊniɪz(ə)m]

NOUN

derogatory

the appointment of friends and associates to positions of authority, without proper regard to their qualifications.

I would suggest it is rife.

 

[magicjuan]

As has been said, I'd be inclined to think those actually procuring things are clueless as well. If you've ever had the pleasure of going through public sector procurement you'll appreciate just how dysfunctional it is. It would be much easier to accept if the barriers placed are designed to increase quality, but a lot of the time they're not. In many ways, that's why the likes of Capita and Carillion sprung up because they were so good at playing the system.

I don't think many would argue that society is generally fine with criticising your Virgin Health's of the world, but flaws in the NHS itself tend to be brushed off as the fault of Jeremy Hunt, or the private sector or generally anyone but the people actually working in the NHS. I'm not saying they're bad people, and indeed I wouldn't say people in Virgin are bad people either tbh, but we've got to be comfortable saying that they need to improve.

I mean I read a study the other day essentially saying how poor value for money management consultants are for the NHS. If you're of a certain persuasion you'll no doubt wave your first, cuss the swines for ripping us off and so on, and that's fine. All I ask is that you show a similar willingness to do likewise to public sector folk when it's warranted. I mean you go into any health facility in the country, and chances are stress levels will be through the roof, leading not only to more sick leave (or permanent departures) but also poorer quality decisions. It's easy to pass that off as being down to insufficient money or whatever, but that overlooks the huge impact bad management has.

It's more complex than public = good, private = bad.

I worked for a local authority for a long time. Within 6 months I was stunned by the lack of knowledge and ability the higher up the chain you went, also how 'corrupt' it all became, corrupt in the sense of illogical and not fit for purpose as well as in the other sense.
The procurement system was beyond problematic and saved no finances whatsoever.

If you've ever come across the deals between LCC & BT as LDL, then multiply that exponentially to national and inter national deals it's no wonder most of the world struggles to survive.

 

[ClausThomsen]

Completely agree with that. I’m not too sure why you’ve framed it like I’m defending the way taxation is handled in this country, or that saying that taking from pension pots is acceptable.

Not my intention to do that and apologies if that's how I've worded it. I was arguing against the idea that acquired businesses are at deaths door and the actions taken thereafter are of benefit to the economy.

The hungry wolf idea in the OP does stand up here. Philip and Tina Green must have known how their actions were affecting the pension fund - money that others needed much more than the money they made. It's near psychopathic when someone who is already incredibly wealthy is willing to scre much poorer people to get even more money.

I mean I read a study the other day essentially saying how poor value for money management consultants are for the NHS. If you're of a certain persuasion you'll no doubt wave your first, cuss the swines for ripping us off and so on, and that's fine. All I ask is that you show a similar willingness to do likewise to public sector folk when it's warranted. I mean you go into any health facility in the country, and chances are stress levels will be through the roof, leading not only to more sick leave (or permanent departures) but also poorer quality decisions. It's easy to pass that off as being down to insufficient money or whatever, but that overlooks the huge impact bad management has.

I completely agree that there is a requirement for thorough standards at all levels and I don't personally buy into the mantra of all NHS front-line staff or managers being hardworking angels and every problem being down to funding - they're a mix of people just as good or bad at their job or in their intentions as people any other field and I've no doubt that huge sums of money are being poured into that black hole of inefficiency or incompetence.

However, the idea that the private sector can sort things out is not true to my eyes. I believe the private sector is more interested in diverting that funding into a few already very full back pockets while getting into the ears and wallets of politicians to find ways of doing less for those funds. There are lessons to be learned from good examples in the private sector but that's not the same as handing over services to it.

Back onto OP's point - Stating that there is a need “to fight and win the battle of ideas and to defeat socialism today as we have defeated it before” shows contempt for worker protection, child benefit, winter fuel payments, state pensions or free health care and a desire to exacerbate the gap between the haves and have-nots. All for the benefit of £15000 per head attendees and, if necessary, at the expense of those they view as below them.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's quite true that the NHS is a public body (also creating more jobs in the UK than any billionaire) but it is also true that increasing parts of it have been outsourced to the private sector over the last few years. NHS Trusts are having to bid against private firms such as Virgin Care for contracts involving end-of-life care, community care and other health services. And if you've ever had the misfortune to work for these private care firms then you'll fully understand that there is absolutely no desire from the owners to put service users anywhere near the top of the priority list.

Sadly I'm not sure it is true of NHS people a lot of the time. The wife's bosses don't care about her patients at all.

Very rarely do we get the capable health clinician getting their hands on the wheels of power and finances in the NHS very likely the same for Virgin Care although they will always be compromised by their shareholder legal status. These positions of power and finance are mainly reserved for those from the corporate world. Good example is how the top echelons power in Oxfam have behaved when managing current scandal, they failed in their duty because it was not about the people they helping but how their bushiness model would be perceived. And in any other period in the past they would have got away with it and very likely many other organistions have gotten away with it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Not my intention to do that and apologies if that's how I've worded it. I was arguing against the idea that acquired businesses are at deaths door and the actions taken thereafter are of benefit to the economy.

The hungry wolf idea in the OP does stand up here. Philip and Tina Green must have known how their actions were affecting the pension fund - money that others needed much more than the money they made. It's near psychopathic when someone who is already incredibly wealthy is willing to scre much poorer people to get even more money.

I completely agree that there is a requirement for thorough standards at all levels and I don't personally buy into the mantra of all NHS front-line staff or managers being hardworking angels and every problem being down to funding - they're a mix of people just as good or bad at their job or in their intentions as people any other field and I've no doubt that huge sums of money are being poured into that black hole of inefficiency or incompetence.

However, the idea that the private sector can sort things out is not true to my eyes. I believe the private sector is more interested in diverting that funding into a few already very full back pockets while getting into the ears and wallets of politicians to find ways of doing less for those funds. There are lessons to be learned from good examples in the private sector but that's not the same as handing over services to it.

Back onto OP's point - Stating that there is a need “to fight and win the battle of ideas and to defeat socialism today as we have defeated it before” shows contempt for worker protection, child benefit, winter fuel payments, state pensions or free health care and a desire to exacerbate the gap between the haves and have-nots. All for the benefit of £15000 per head attendees and, if necessary, at the expense of those they view as below them.

Aye, it's a mixture (from personal experience). For instance, I know the people at places like DeepMind and Babylon, and they're motivated purely by a desire to do good. I've worked with people at Deloitte however who are just milking the golden calf. Sadly, it seems that the more integrated a company has to be, the more charlatans you get as doing so properly is so bloody hard that it puts a lot of the better folk off.

Very rarely do we get the capable health clinician getting their hands on the wheels of power and finances in the NHS very likely the same for Virgin Care although they will always be compromised by their shareholder legal status. These positions of power and finance are mainly reserved for those from the corporate world. Good example is how the top echelons power in Oxfam have behaved when managing current scandal, they failed in their duty because it was not about the people they helping but how their bushiness model would be perceived. And in any other period in the past they would have got away with it and very likely many other organistions have gotten away with it.

I'd actually suggest the problem is the opposite to be honest. Many of the senior managers are professional managers who only have experience of the NHS, whilst many middle managers are clinical staff who have been promoted because they're good clinical staff rather than good managers.

 

[peteblue]

It's a cop out to blame the private sector for it imo. The vast majority of managers in the NHS are former doctors and nurses. Yes, the targets are ridiculous, but it's not at all helpful that we give the NHS a free pass as 'heroes working in difficult circumstances'. It allows them to get away with a bewildering amount of incompetence that we wouldn't accept in the private sector.

The targets are stupid. No target set by someone else is ever met. Just like in private industry, the various NHS hospitals, trusts and surgeries should set their own targets, then they own them. Compile a list by all means for comparison so as to see those setting the bar too low

Not my intention to do that and apologies if that's how I've worded it. I was arguing against the idea that acquired businesses are at deaths door and the actions taken thereafter are of benefit to the economy.

The hungry wolf idea in the OP does stand up here. Philip and Tina Green must have known how their actions were affecting the pension fund - money that others needed much more than the money they made. It's near psychopathic when someone who is already incredibly wealthy is willing to scre much poorer people to get even more money.



I completely agree that there is a requirement for thorough standards at all levels and I don't personally buy into the mantra of all NHS front-line staff or managers being hardworking angels and every problem being down to funding - they're a mix of people just as good or bad at their job or in their intentions as people any other field and I've no doubt that huge sums of money are being poured into that black hole of inefficiency or incompetence.

However, the idea that the private sector can sort things out is not true to my eyes. I believe the private sector is more interested in diverting that funding into a few already very full back pockets while getting into the ears and wallets of politicians to find ways of doing less for those funds. There are lessons to be learned from good examples in the private sector but that's not the same as handing over services to it.

Back onto OP's point - Stating that there is a need “to fight and win the battle of ideas and to defeat socialism today as we have defeated it before” shows contempt for worker protection, child benefit, winter fuel payments, state pensions or free health care and a desire to exacerbate the gap between the haves and have-nots. All for the benefit of £15000 per head attendees and, if necessary, at the expense of those they view as below them.

Have you ever worked in the private sector.......if so, you have no idea how it works.....

 

[ClausThomsen]

Have you ever worked in the private sector.......if so, you have no idea how it works.....

I'm assuming there's a typo there? If not rather than if so? It may be going over my head.

Regardless, I've worked in both the private & public sector and seen first hand the hugely negative difference to quality of service, workplace morale and employee rights / benefits that private sector involvement can make to a previously well ran and capable organisation or service. It's been a case of constantly shifting the goalposts to give the illusion of a better service.

But since these aspects have coincided with bigger profits for controlling stakeholders it's deemed to be a good thing and a green light for further lowering quality of service and trampling those at the bottom.

 

[Azzurri]

I love these threads about Socialism, containing posts from Snowflakes who wouldn’t know socialism if it bit them on the arse and who have had the most pampered lives in the history of the U.K......

Ah yes, zero hour contracts, a minimum wage that hasn’t risen accordingly along with inflation, £9,000+ a year for university and a ridiculous housing market.

Great this.

 

[ClausThomsen]

Ah yes, zero hour contracts, a minimum wage that hasn’t risen accordingly along with inflation, £9,000+ a year for university and a ridiculous housing market.

Great this.

You've forgotten about your pension contributions amounting to nothing and having to work beyond the age of the generations immediately before you.

Glad I'm not starting out these days but yeah...snowflakes you lot

 

[peteblue]

Ah yes, zero hour contracts, a minimum wage that hasn’t risen accordingly along with inflation, £9,000+ a year for university and a ridiculous housing market.

Great this.

Who are these Graduates who paid about £30,000 to obtain a degree yet somehow ended up on zero hour contracts and minimum wage. Perhaps if they’d been less mollycoddled, and instead of going to University, they could have borrowed the £30,000 and started their own business and been able to afford to buy a house........

 

[Azzurri]

Who are these Graduates who paid about £30,000 to obtain a degree yet somehow ended up on zero hour contracts and minimum wage. Perhaps if they’d been less mollycoddled, and instead of going to University, they could have borrowed the £30,000 and started their own business and been able to afford to buy a house........

Yeah, the banks love giving 30k out to non-graduates with no business experience.

But of course, you know that’s not how it works.

 

[peteblue]

Yeah, the banks love giving 30k out to non-graduates with no business experience.

But of course, you know that’s not how it works.

Well let’s be honest, for the first three years even at university they are non-graduates. But seriously, many kids shouldn’t be going to Uni, they would be far better off doing their own think or starting up a small business. I read a report about AI and the future of people and many respected commentators suggest that apart from being the very best Lawyer, the average ones will be replaced by machines, the best thing to do is be a plumber or an electrician etc......

 

[tsubaki]

Well let’s be honest, for the first three years even at university they are non-graduates. But seriously, many kids shouldn’t be going to Uni, they would be far better off doing their own think or starting up a small business. I read a report about AI and the future of people and many respected commentators suggest that apart from being the very best Lawyer, the average ones will be replaced by machines, the best thing to do is be a plumber or an electrician etc......

This is correct, but the system is set up to make sure they don't do that - loads of jobs, and almost any career you care to mention (including daft things like nursing and policing which never used to require one because of the on-the-job training) now demand a degree, and as Azzuri says the finance available to the 18 year old who wants to start his or her business doesn't really exist.

Of course we did use to live in a country where many kids didn't go to University, being instead trained (in many cases to very high level) in the workplace, had reasonably secure and stable employment, and were able to buy genuinely affordable accomodation.

 

[zzr45]

This is correct, but the system is set up to make sure they don't do that - loads of jobs, and almost any career you care to mention (including daft things like nursing and policing which never used to require one because of the on-the-job training) now demand a degree, and as Azzuri says the finance available to the 18 year old who wants to start his or her business doesn't really exist.

Of course we did use to live in a country where many kids didn't go to University, being instead trained (in many cases to very high level) in the workplace, had reasonably secure and stable employment, and were able to buy genuinely affordable accomodation.

And then some moron said ‘education, education, education.’

 

[ClausThomsen]

This is correct, but the system is set up to make sure they don't do that - loads of jobs, and almost any career you care to mention (including daft things like nursing and policing which never used to require one because of the on-the-job training) now demand a degree, and as Azzuri says the finance available to the 18 year old who wants to start his or her business doesn't really exist.

Of course we did use to live in a country where many kids didn't go to University, being instead trained (in many cases to very high level) in the workplace, had reasonably secure and stable employment, and were able to buy genuinely affordable accomodation.

This - There are a huge amount of companies who now have no interest in giving even basic, low level management or even supervisory roles to experienced workers if they don't hold a degree. A degree is now viewed by many companies as a basic necessity the same way that a decent GCSE level grasp of English and Maths were viewed 20 years ago.