Usmanov

Status
Not open for further replies.

The point is that the chances of us being effectively owned by Usmanov are slim to Nil. Personally I think we are almost certainly owned by Moshiri, and we have to start to wonder how long he will be able to keep funding the losses we are sustaining.

I think Everton has very little credibility to borrow money cheaply. We have posted a quarter of a billion of losses over the last three years, and we are almost entirely reliant on TV revenues for income. We are in a situation in which wages are 85% of our turnover. That is unsustainable.

As you say we now need to find the funding to build BMD. Who is going to lend money to a company that can't even get a revolving credit facility at a decent rate.
Good clear answer.

None of us know what future plan of Moshiri or Moshiri/Usmanov is.
We know that Usmanov is willing to invest money and I think he said that may or may not involve ownership.

But, at present, we are still heading towards the development of the new ground.

If we can only borrow money at extortionate rates just for cashflow then there is absolutely no chance of getting half a billion to build a stadium...why then are we pressing ahead?

I have never believed that this is a solo run by Moshiri, I have always believed that Usmanov is at some point going to take a stake in the club or at least some associates of Usmanov may do so.

It is very clear that the link with Usmanov is kept tenuous even though the advertising boards around the club shout to the contrary.
I cannot help but feel that FFP may be a factor in whatever decision has been made over ownership and the exclusion of Usmanov allows more freedom for independent investment.
 
He isn't giving money to the Club he is underwriting a share issue. In effect, he is creating a bigger pie that he owns a bigger share of.

The idea that Moshiri is pumping money into Everton as a benevolent act needs knocking on the head. He initially bought less than half of the Club after the share issue he will own 92%.

And what do you think his next step is?

Do you think it might be to loan the club more money to spend, to later convert into kore equity, as has happened before?

Oh and I think @Zatara is interested where you are getting where you are getting a 100m commercial loan for under 3% haha
 

And what do you think his next step is?

Do you think it might be to loan the club more money to spend, to later convert into kore equity, as has happened before?

Oh and I think @Zatara is interested where you are getting where you are getting a 100m commercial loan for under 3% haha


United.

Manchester United said it precautionarily drew funds from the RCF to increase its cash position, preserve financial flexibility and maintain liquidity during the crisis.


The secured RCF, which matures in April 2025, pays a margin ranging from 125bp to 175bp over Libor/Euribor, depending on leverage.

Bank of America is facility agent and security trustee on the revolver.

Liverpool.

accounts.webp


Spurs.

Bank of America Merrill Lynch, which acted as lead placement agent and sole bookrunner on the bond issue, has provided a £112m term loan and HSBC has granted a revolving credit facility. The idea is to limit Spurs’ debt-servicing costs and the average annual interest rate on the new arrangement is 2.66%.



Need any more ?
 
United.

Manchester United said it precautionarily drew funds from the RCF to increase its cash position, preserve financial flexibility and maintain liquidity during the crisis.


The secured RCF, which matures in April 2025, pays a margin ranging from 125bp to 175bp over Libor/Euribor, depending on leverage.

Bank of America is facility agent and security trustee on the revolver.

Liverpool.

View attachment 128237

Spurs.

Bank of America Merrill Lynch, which acted as lead placement agent and sole bookrunner on the bond issue, has provided a £112m term loan and HSBC has granted a revolving credit facility. The idea is to limit Spurs’ debt-servicing costs and the average annual interest rate on the new arrangement is 2.66%.



Need any more ?

These all have stadia as security to underpin the loan?

And a revolving credit agreement is not a loan. Keep trying.
 
I was posting from my phone previously, and placating him a bit as a result by asking some questions. As usual very little answers were apparent beyond rude and unnecessary digs.

Anyway to address some of the substance behind the what he's saying (as there is a lot of 2+2=37) going on. Certain things can be true simultaneously. The credit arrangement we have is far from ideal, but is unrelated to whether or not Usmanov is helping to infuence and/or bankroll the project in the background- or indeed if he will come into the foreground.

It seems a very odd detail to get focussed on. The club is not run sustainably at present. The only other examples of a club ran in a similar way over the last 20 years were Manchester City and Chelsea- who also both ran clubs which for long periods looked wholly unsustainably in the short term, to build something in the long term that was viable and would pay off. This is not unusual for shareholders /owners to take this view at all. As has been stated a lot, for many years Amazon was ran at a loss but more and more people bought in. Tesla is another that was run at a loss yet there have been no shortage of shareholders willing to invest. Essentially they see the long term reward as outweighing the short term turbulence.

That we keep spending money, every summer, year on year that organically the business can't support would seem to me to be a clearer indication that we have significant backing from a wealthy individual(s) than the level of repayment due on a particular bridging loan. As far as I'm aware the money Moshiri puts into the club, initially as debt, to be converted as equity I beliueve is lent to the club at 0% anyway.

I also saw the lad in question stating that this didn't count as he coverted into equity. But again objectively, the club is not worth the money he converted into equity. I believe the last £200m took him from around the low 80's into the 90's in terms of a percentage. That would put an implied valuation onthe ground of about 2bn. It is a wild over valuation of the business in most conventional senses. It is essentially a gift to get around FFP. The club not Moshiri benefits from this.

As a final aside, 7% is not even that high to borrow at present, especially if it's fixed. The libor rate is likely to go up at some point, and everyone is ecpected the return of some inflation. To give some context, Amazon borrow money at around 8%. Nobody would use this as evidence that Jeff Bezos was not in charge of Amazon. He could fund many of the growth projects with hos own cash, but chooses to borrow at 8%. This is not uncommon.

So I have no idea how involved Usmanov is, but clearly there is some quite serious financial backing occurring.
 

I'm concerned about our ability to generate further independent commercial revenue.

There is still an air of a basket case about the club that will be picked up on and is obviously very unappealing in terms of sponsorship.

On my local radio station at the weekend the news is sponsored by Paddy Power and that few seconds is always a quip at someone's expense.

This time it was "Restricted European travel this summer - not a problem for Everton fans!"

At a bigger level, I would similarly be concerned at the extent to which Moshiri and by extension, Usmanov, would be willing to associate themselves with what seems to be continuous failure before having second thoughts at least.. I'd imagine Everton pose problems that they just haven't seen before and/or seemingly appear unable at present to arrest.

Should the stadium be delivered to our expectations then clearly that will be a massive boost to the standing and appeal of the club and a mark of personal achievement for Moshiri in particular but in terms of development and strategy, we can't hang everything on that particular hook.
 
The point is that the chances of us being effectively owned by Usmanov are slim to Nil. Personally I think we are almost certainly owned by Moshiri, and we have to start to wonder how long he will be able to keep funding the losses we are sustaining.

I think Everton has very little credibility to borrow money cheaply. We have posted a quarter of a billion of losses over the last three years, and we are almost entirely reliant on TV revenues for income. We are in a situation in which wages are 85% of our turnover. That is unsustainable.

As you say we now need to find the funding to build BMD. Who is going to lend money to a company that can't even get a revolving credit facility at a decent rate.
I think you need to brush up on your English a bit
You seem to continually get we and you mixed up
 
The point is that the chances of us being effectively owned by Usmanov are slim to Nil. Personally I think we are almost certainly owned by Moshiri, and we have to start to wonder how long he will be able to keep funding the losses we are sustaining.

I think Everton has very little credibility to borrow money cheaply. We have posted a quarter of a billion of losses over the last three years, and we are almost entirely reliant on TV revenues for income. We are in a situation in which wages are 85% of our turnover. That is unsustainable.

As you say we now need to find the funding to build BMD. Who is going to lend money to a company that can't even get a revolving credit facility at a decent rate.
hahahahahahaha.

With absolutely no offence meant, are you an actual idiot or just trying to imitate one to amuse yourself?
 
The difference is that we are still having to go to a murky offshore company for expensive loans whilst the likes of United and Liverpool are able to borrow from traditional banks at a much lower rate.

What happens when Moshiri can no longer afford to bankroll us, and where do we get the financing for BMD from ?
Did you ever ask yourself who owns the banks
You might be surprised at the answer
 
I was posting from my phone previously, and placating him a bit as a result by asking some questions. As usual very little answers were apparent beyond rude and unnecessary digs.

Anyway to address some of the substance behind the what he's saying (as there is a lot of 2+2=37) going on. Certain things can be true simultaneously. The credit arrangement we have is far from ideal, but is unrelated to whether or not Usmanov is helping to infuence and/or bankroll the project in the background- or indeed if he will come into the foreground.

It seems a very odd detail to get focussed on. The club is not run sustainably at present. The only other examples of a club ran in a similar way over the last 20 years were Manchester City and Chelsea- who also both ran clubs which for long periods looked wholly unsustainably in the short term, to build something in the long term that was viable and would pay off. This is not unusual for shareholders /owners to take this view at all. As has been stated a lot, for many years Amazon was ran at a loss but more and more people bought in. Tesla is another that was run at a loss yet there have been no shortage of shareholders willing to invest. Essentially they see the long term reward as outweighing the short term turbulence.

That we keep spending money, every summer, year on year that organically the business can't support would seem to me to be a clearer indication that we have significant backing from a wealthy individual(s) than the level of repayment due on a particular bridging loan. As far as I'm aware the money Moshiri puts into the club, initially as debt, to be converted as equity I beliueve is lent to the club at 0% anyway.

I also saw the lad in question stating that this didn't count as he coverted into equity. But again objectively, the club is not worth the money he converted into equity. I believe the last £200m took him from around the low 80's into the 90's in terms of a percentage. That would put an implied valuation onthe ground of about 2bn. It is a wild over valuation of the business in most conventional senses. It is essentially a gift to get around FFP. The club not Moshiri benefits from this.

As a final aside, 7% is not even that high to borrow at present, especially if it's fixed. The libor rate is likely to go up at some point, and everyone is ecpected the return of some inflation. To give some context, Amazon borrow money at around 8%. Nobody would use this as evidence that Jeff Bezos was not in charge of Amazon. He could fund many of the growth projects with hos own cash, but chooses to borrow at 8%. This is not uncommon.

So I have no idea how involved Usmanov is, but clearly there is some quite serious financial backing occurring.
You get worse Catcher.


Amazon.com is selling bonds to refinance debt and buy back stock, as cheap borrowing costs prove too tempting to resist even for a company with tens of billions of dollars in cash.

The online retail giant is issuing $US18.5 billion ($23.6 billion) of debt in eight parts, according to people with knowledge of the matter. The longest portion, a 40-year security, will yield 95 basis points over Treasuries, after initially discussing around 115 basis points, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the details are private.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join Grand Old Team to get involved in the Everton discussion. Signing up is quick, easy, and completely free.

Shop

Back
Top