The State of the game

[Neiler]

I personaly think that money can make a limited difference but its not as important as a lot of people make out. It offers you a better chance but no gaurentees.

Its one variable that offeres you an improved chance of success, but the most important thing is a long term strategy, trust between players-manager and the club, and consistencey in management.

Look at clubs whove followed a money trail, Pompey, Fulham, Newcastle, Spurs, Man City, West Ham and in the long term we have been more successfull then any of them it shows we are about 70% of the way there, all that is missing is investment and frankly im hopefull! Man City are having a laugh when you look at the clubs who have been successfull like Utd, Arsenal yes they have been successfull with financial clout but only successfull when their managers have complimented signings with a philosphey at a club and also complimenting signings with young talent. To be successfull you have to build a club rather then a team and like i say we are 70% of the way there. There are oppurtunites there for us as a club and the next few months are going to be critical IMO.

What is distinguisable is that we are a club identifiable by identiy, tradition and dignity. All your Chelseas and Man City's will never be able to have what we have and will ebb and flow throughout the future of the game. In all honesty we have seen of most of the "new money" coming into the leauge so im not the slightest bit worried. Its a pity city came along just now, despite being entertaining it came at a time when reality was starting to creep a little bit into the market. I perosnaly think other clubs are finding themselves in the financial predicament we have had to deal with for pushing on 20 years now, if anything i think we are at this time on a more even playing feild with our peers then we have been since the premierships inception.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Good post Neiler.

 

[TsarDiniyar]

We can still win things without financial clout. Portsmouth did it, Boro got to a Uefa cup final, Spurs won the Carling Cup and maybe on to the final again (they have finacial clout but arent your top 4 club), West Ham, Millwall, etc all reached cup finals in the modern era......

Winning the league you need money...winning a domestic trophy needs more than that IMO. It helps but luck, management, tactics etc all play a part in a cup run. But we're not the only club with those "we need to win more silverware arguement" argument - every team below us want the same.

EDIT - sorry, didnt see the reply.
Well that's Moyes for you. But getting to those finals is a springboard. I'm sure our club would move on and and improve from a good Cup Final.

Look at Villa, 5 points from the top. I know it wont last but you never know....

So you would be happy being a mediocre side forever winning the occasional cup which most see mickey mouse trophies and generally dont gain a lot of recognition for? As thats the way its going.

 

[Robin Sisland]

Yep I agree with that Neiler.

But I'd add that the difference in the amount of money available to the top few clubs and the rest has reached such a level that there's really no point in expecting to win the league or to be able to compete on a level in the Champions league.
Someone writing in the Times (I think) lst year pointed out that in terms of performance for money spent we have repeatedly outperformed the richest clubs. Sadly there's no prizes for value for money in football and the only way we can reach the same level as the few rich clubs is to become one of them. And as there are apparently no more super rich investors around who want to throw money at EPL clubs it looks like that road is also closed.
There is an alternative though which I think deserves serious consideration. Namely hiving off the super rich clubs into a European super league - which let's face it is what they want, and letting the domestic leagues get back to something like they were before this current money frenzy began.

There would have be conditions of course. I'd suggest a bar on automatic promotion/relegation. Clubs wanting to drop out of the super league should be forced to re-enter the domestic league from the lowest level and work their way up. Similarly players wanting to return to domestic leagues from the super league should face a (say) two year suspension.
I'd give it about 5 years before it collapses.

 

[kenada_blue]

So you would be happy being a mediocre side forever winning the occasional cup which most see mickey mouse trophies and generally dont gain a lot of recognition for? As thats the way its going.

No other team will win the league outside the sky 4 in the next 5 seasons. Either live with that fact or struggle not to. With that mentallity even getting 3rd or 4th place in the league and zero silverware is "mediocre" at best.

So what can you do? Get as close as you can to those top 4 sides and try and win the competitions you have a chance of winning.

If not, how can we change that? Well - sell the club, bring a new board, bring in a new manager, sell the players who arent world class or international class (Osman, Hibbert, Vaughan, Anichebe, all the academy players), get financial clout, bring in quality x2 for 1st team and bench so depth.

Compare the team and the club now to when Walker was in charge or the 90's or when the premiership was introduced. If that's not progress in the "modern age" with our resources I dont know what is.

Yes, I am happy that we're one of the 6th top teams in the country in the toughest league in the entire world. That top 6 (as it stands now) consists of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Everton......yes, I want more. But who doesnt? And if that's mediocre and we're a mediocre team then so be it.

 

[TsarDiniyar]

No other team will win the league outside the sky 4 in the next 5 seasons. Either live with that fact or struggle not to. With that mentallity even getting 3rd or 4th place in the league and zero silverware is "mediocre" at best.

So what can you do? Get as close as you can to those top 4 sides and try and win the competitions you have a chance of winning.

If not, how can we change that? Well - sell the club, bring a new board, bring in a new manager, sell the players who arent world class or international class (Osman, Hibbert, Vaughan, Anichebe, all the academy players), get financial clout, bring in quality x2 for 1st team and bench so depth.

Compare the team and the club now to when Walker was in charge or the 90's or when the premiership was introduced. If that's not progress in the "modern age" with our resources I dont know what is.

Yes, I am happy that we're one of the 6th top teams in the country in the toughest league in the entire world. That top 6 (as it stands now) consists of Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Villa, Everton......yes, I want more. But who doesnt? And if that's mediocre and we're a mediocre team then so be it.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, there's no denying Everton have progressed immensley, but my point is that they're not going to ever become a great club, like Man Utd are now, unless they are heavily invested in. This is something that I find repulsive and should not be part of the game.

Football is not a game anymore, its a medium for businessmen to increase their income.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

it has to be said that although we have had no money for ages now imo that is what has prevented us doing a leeds, as i'm sure that if we couldve got hocked up more at the time then we would've done exactly the same as them.
at the moment we cant get finance (or struggle) look at the clubs with the biggest debts, they cant be 100% confident that they will survive this financial crisis, take the arse for example, we could increase pressure on them 100 fold if we beat them, at the start of the season it was said that wenger has to raise 22mill from transfers just to service the stadium debt, so if they dont get c.l. next year where does that leave them ?
whereas if we sneak a place without spending then it's all profit, we have to be content at the moment that we are surviving and staying up there and not risking our future, thats not defeatest it's about thinking about it in the longterm, i want this club to be hear for my future grandkids and theirs as well.
i dont relly see the winners of the prem in the same way as i did the old div. 1, as has been pointed out it's not the team that has done it through sweat and toil, it's the ones with the money and the mercennary signings.
i left the uk at the end of '93 and i was away for 7 years, in that time i saw from a distance the explosion of the premier league, i wouldve loved us to have been one of the top teams as i watched from afar and tuned into the world service but it wasnt to be, i had to go through moments like the wimbledon game listening on a crackly set sitting with a chelsea fan, and tbh as i saw the prem change beyond recognition i have to say i found it all a bit alien and vulgar, it seemed to become like the nfl to me.
i have always believed that football would reach saturation point and people would get sick of it on tv all the time, sick of the primadonnas with their inflated ego's and salaries, and finally it seems to be happening as we are all having to tighten our own pursestrings, kaka £500,000 a week ffs the only way that is acceptable in my book is if he's spreading £495,000 a week around charities.
when does the tv deal run out because if we are deep in recession when thats up for renewal then it wont be anywhere near as much next time, we could be doing well over here though and it could be recession elsewhere that dictates the deal (asia).
it is time for the big reset button to be hit, hit the emergency stop. maybe fifa or someone will set rules to protect the game, probably the day after the sultan of brunei buys us and announces he's gonna spend spend spend.

 

[Robin Sisland]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, there's no denying Everton have progressed immensley, but my point is that they're not going to ever become a great club, like Man Utd are now, unless they are heavily invested in. This is something that I find repulsive and should not be part of the game.

Football is not a game anymore, its a medium for businessmen to increase their income.

And/or a medium for the super rich to waste their money.
The Glazers might actually be making a profit at Man U, but the yanks across the park aren't. Meanwhile Abromovitch has lost hundreds of millions at Chelsea and Citteh's new owners look ready to try and outdo him.

You're right, neither us nor most of the other premiership/championship clubs are ever going to have that sort of cash to splash. The only solution I can see is what I suggested above - the super rich clubs should be allowed to leave their domestic leagues and form a European super league.
It's what they want, it's what Uefa had in mind when they changed the European Cup into the Champions League and it will be better for all the less wealthy clubs which will no longer have to perform financial miracles to stay in business.

 

[kenada_blue]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, there's no denying Everton have progressed immensley, but my point is that they're not going to ever become a great club, like Man Utd are now, unless they are heavily invested in. This is something that I find repulsive and should not be part of the game.

Football is not a game anymore, its a medium for businessmen to increase their income.

Apologies for that.

Yes, money is king. But every year prices go up everywhere. transfers go up, costs go up, sponsorship goes up. Wasnt it only in the late 70's the 1st million £ transfer took place? (1979 was the 1st £1m transfer. Trevor Francis to Forest - Basil Fawlty). Nowdays £5million is considered a bargin for a bit of quality. For actual world class talant its upwards of £10million+.

For us to just compete on a day to day level we need investment. Not just to try and win the league but to just stay in the league, that's just the way things are. We can win things without money but to be a true world wide "great" in modern football, money is needed.

Man Utd hit things at the right moment. They werent a massive money making club when the Premiership was introduced, they hit success at the right time when the big money was beginning to flood in.

In the early days of the Prem you had Newcastle, Arsenal, Blackburn, Man Utd, Liverpool, Leeds, even Norwich City fighting at the top of the table. The clubs that started to win things when this money was being pumped in (champs league, sky) were Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd. When that happened they generated ridiculous amounts off cash. Winning the Champions League nowdays can net a club £110million. So as the money came in they spent it on players, built a team and carried it on and on, winning silverware every season, progressing in competitions -

The point being is the fact Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool made and generated cash was all down to football and winning when the influx of cash started to pour in around 1992. That's how Man Utd became "great". Not down to how much they spend - they spend because they can - but because they won things at the right time.

Ever since Chelsea steam-rolled in around 5-6 years ago and "bought" silverware the premiership has turned for the worst some say. Investors see it as big money spinning business where success can be bought.....competition with the money-clubs grows, transfer fees and wages get higher and this filters to every club to a point that they cant compete.

But at the moment....its become hit and miss. Chelsea are in slight turmoil, Spurs and Newcastle cant get it right, and Citeh....who knows but so far it doesnt look great and the credit crisis is going to do something to the league at some point.

More of a rant from me than making a point. But generally I was trying to say that there's a reason why Man Utd are how they are and that came from football and winning things, not money. As years and seasons go on money came forward and things changed making clubs without it have no real chance of reaching the sky 4's successful highs.

 

[manxtoffee]

Apologies for that.
Yes, money is king. But every year prices go up everywhere. transfers go up, costs go up, sponsorship goes up. Wasnt it only in the late 80's early 90's the 1st million £ transfer took place? Nowday £5million is considered a bargin for a bit of quality. For actual world class talant its upwards of £10million+.
For us to just compete on a day to day level we need investment. Not just to try and win the league but to just stay in the league, that's just the way things are. We can win things without money but to be a true world wide "great" in modern football, money is needed.

Man Utd hit things at the right moment. They werent a massive money making club when the Premiership was introduced, they hit success at the right time when the big money was beginning to flood in.

In the early days of the Prem you had Newcastle, Arsenal, Blackburn, Man Utd, Liverpool, Leeds, even Norwich City fighting at the top of the table. The clubs that started to win things when this money was being pumped in (champs league, sky) were Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd. When that happened they generated ridiculous amounts off cash. Winning the champions league nowdays can net a club £110million. So as the money came in they spent it on players, built a team and carried it on and on, winning silverware every season, progressing in competitions -

The point being is the fact Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool made and generated cash was all down to football and winning when the influx of cash started to pour in around 1992. That's how Man Utd became "great". Not down to how much they spend - they spend because they can - but because they won things at the right time.

Ever since Chelsea steam-rolled in around 5-6 years ago and "bought" silverware the premiership has turned for the worst some say. Investors see it as big money spinning business where success can be bought.....competition with the money clubs grows, transfer fees and wages get higher and this filters to every club to a point that they cant compete.

But at the moment....its become hit and miss. Chelsea are in slight turmoil, Spurs and Newcastle cant get it right, and Citeh....who knows but so far it doesnt look great and the credit crisis is going to do something to the league at some point.

More of a rant from me than making a point. But generally I trying to say there's a reason why Man Utd are how they are and they came from football and winning things, not money. As years and seasons go on money came forward and things changed making clubs without it have no real change of reaching the sky 4's successful highs.

Top post KB....
I was thinking of saying the same thing, although I seriously doubt my version would've came out as good...

 

[Basil Fawlty]

1979 was the 1st £1m transfer. Trevor Francis to Forest

 

[DaveBond21]

I agree with your Dad. In fact, it's pretty bad that Everton fans cannot hope to be Champions at the beginning of a particular season. Maybe it's time for a salary cap, as they have in Australian Rugby League and Aussie Rules meaning you can't buy success, and it makes the competition more even. You can be 12th one year, and then champions the next.

As a Newcastle fan, I'd rather win the Carling Cup than finish 4th. I just want to see the Newcastle captain holding up some silverwear. It hasn't happened since 1969!