Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

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I've gave this a good 10 mins of thought and been too lazy to research but if someone grew up with a legal slave trade on their doorstep it may have been seen as a standard way of life then, just as sending 5 year olds to work in factories was the norm. The ruling classes then saw all people as beneath them and expendable.

A person gets a job, in what they saw as a large corporation that was or wasn't then viewed as a legal labour exchange. They work their way up to run the place with that money they use it for a big social issue that helped an element of society then and now.
We got to where we are today by many small steps, there may be businesses going on in our life time that when people look back on it are horrified with as the full extent of their ways have been laid out. Eg, if someone worked in shop xyz that was made with clothes that exploited the young. In the future people could see links to xyz and so tear down that road name of the person who later went onto to improve society.

I think if they do review names then I can't help but think it would be done by the trainee admin clerk who will be given a list of thousands of street names, and they go on Wikipedia and any that cross check with a set list of organisations from then get the chop.
 
Big Neville Southall said:
I've gave this a good 10 mins of thought and been too lazy to research but if someone grew up with a legal slave trade on their doorstep it may have been seen as a standard way of life then, just as sending 5 year olds to work in factories was the norm. The ruling classes then saw all people as beneath them and expendable.

A person gets a job, in what they saw as a large corporation that was or wasn't then viewed as a legal labour exchange. They work their way up to run the place with that money they use it for a big social issue that helped an element of society then and now.
We got to where we are today by many small steps, there may be businesses going on in our life time that when people look back on it are horrified with as the full extent of their ways have been laid out. Eg, if someone worked in shop xyz that was made with clothes that exploited the young. In the future people could see links to xyz and so tear down that road name of the person who later went onto to improve society.

I think if they do review names then I can't help but think it would be done by the trainee admin clerk who will be given a list of thousands of street names, and they go on Wikipedia and any that cross check with a set list of organisations from then get the chop.
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I get what you're saying but with statues of these people, there should be a balanced reflection of that person's life.

I don't think street names are as obvious and most people wouldn't even realise that a street was named after a specific person unless they actively looked it up.

Where I think this "anti-slavery" movement (which is definitely not the same as BLM) falls down is the inability to acknowledge that slavery is still an issue and a lot of the protestors don't seem to care as much about that... almost as if its easier to pull some statues down and walk away than to fight every day to stop the injustices of today. How many of them own iphones despite apple's sketchy record on employee work conditions? How many wear clothes from shops that use sweatshops around the world? How many go to the UAE despite the well documented cases of slave Labour?
 
Big Neville Southall said:
I've gave this a good 10 mins of thought and been too lazy to research but if someone grew up with a legal slave trade on their doorstep it may have been seen as a standard way of life then, just as sending 5 year olds to work in factories was the norm. The ruling classes then saw all people as beneath them and expendable.

A person gets a job, in what they saw as a large corporation that was or wasn't then viewed as a legal labour exchange. They work their way up to run the place with that money they use it for a big social issue that helped an element of society then and now.
We got to where we are today by many small steps, there may be businesses going on in our life time that when people look back on it are horrified with as the full extent of their ways have been laid out. Eg, if someone worked in shop xyz that was made with clothes that exploited the young. In the future people could see links to xyz and so tear down that road name of the person who later went onto to improve society.

I think if they do review names then I can't help but think it would be done by the trainee admin clerk who will be given a list of thousands of street names, and they go on Wikipedia and any that cross check with a set list of organisations from then get the chop.
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I agree with a lot of what you've said here, except for the conclusion you seem to draw from it.

We absolutely live in a world where businesses, governments and individuals are doing things now that will horrify our descendants. If the idea that they will be damned, their statues overturned and their fortunes will be destroyed by those descendants is one that makes them think twice about what they are doing now then surely that is a good thing? I'd even suggest we should do something about them now, whilst we still can*.

* before @Tubey claims this is a call for violent revolution, its not.
 
tsubaki said:
I agree with a lot of what you've said here, except for the conclusion you seem to draw from it.

We absolutely live in a world where businesses, governments and individuals are doing things now that will horrify our descendants. If the idea that they will be damned, their statues overturned and their fortunes will be destroyed by those descendants is one that makes them think twice about what they are doing now then surely that is a good thing? I'd even suggest we should do something about them now, whilst we still can*.

* before @Tubey claims this is a call for violent revolution, its not.
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Nope I broadly agree with it. " The ruling classes then saw all people as beneath them and expendable" - they still do now.

I said the other day that class is a much, much bigger issue than race in the UK in my view and permeates all facets of society and that divide needs redressing as a matter of urgency.

However, in terms of "doing something", I feel we'll very much disagree on how and what that "something" is. Corbyn wasn't that "something" in my eyes.
 
Tubey said:
Nope I broadly agree with it. " The ruling classes then saw all people as beneath them and expendable" - they still do now.

I said the other day that class is a much, much bigger issue than race in the UK in my view and permeates all facets of society and that divide needs redressing as a matter of urgency.

However, in terms of "doing something", I feel we'll very much disagree on how and what that "something" is. Corbyn wasn't that "something" in my eyes.
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Again, I think you are reading Corbyn in there where it really didnt say or imply that. What we have now should be enough (to pick three at random) to deal with what Jenrick probably did, to provide justice for the victims of Grenfell, and to stop tobacco companies faking their remorse about killing millions.
 
tsubaki said:
I agree with a lot of what you've said here, except for the conclusion you seem to draw from it.

We absolutely live in a world where businesses, governments and individuals are doing things now that will horrify our descendants. If the idea that they will be damned, their statues overturned and their fortunes will be destroyed by those descendants is one that makes them think twice about what they are doing now then surely that is a good thing? I'd even suggest We should do something about Them now, whilst we still can*.

* before @Tubey claims this is a call for violent revolution, its not.
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Expand further on the composition / discription of 'We' and 'Them' please...seems a bit divisive

Asking for a friend erm 'me / 'us'
 
degsy said:
Expand further on the composition / discription of 'We' and 'Them' please...seems a bit divisive

Asking for a friend erm 'me / 'us'
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"we" as in the population at large (of whatever political persuasion, race, sex, belief or nationality), the ones who broadly live in peace, behave socially, work hard, don't go after other people etc

"them" as in the very small number of people who are the ones doing the exploiting, gaming the economy, breaking the law without consequences, poisoning the world and its people, avoiding their taxes, making fortunes off us all whilst expecting us to pay up whenever they make a mistake etc

Or if you want to visualise it better (albeit in a narrow and specific way), watch that Epstein series on Netflix. Everyone who wanted to see him face the same fair, impartial justice that in the same way any one of us would be expected to face for what he did is "we"; everyone who hung around with him for girls, conspired to get him to avoid that impartial justice and in the process ensured dozens / hundreds of young girls would be made victims of him is "them".
 
tsubaki said:
"we" as in the population at large (of whatever political persuasion, race, sex, belief or nationality), the ones who broadly live in peace, behave socially, work hard, don't go after other people etc

"them" as in the very small number of people who are the ones doing the exploiting, gaming the economy, breaking the law without consequences, poisoning the world and its people, avoiding their taxes, making fortunes off us all whilst expecting us to pay up whenever they make a mistake etc

Or if you want to visualise it better (albeit in a narrow and specific way), watch that Epstein series on Netflix. Everyone who wanted to see him face the same fair, impartial justice that in the same way any one of us would be expected to face for what he did is "we"; everyone who hung around with him for girls, conspired to get him to avoid that impartial justice and in the process ensured dozens / hundreds of young girls would be made victims of him is "them".
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Phew, I'm a 'We' of the 1st paragraph then...you have to check though.

Carry on.
 
LostLegend said:
I see the EDL and Britain First have people turning up to defend the statues and cenotaphs.

The far right defending a monument to people who fought against *checks notes* the far right... interesting:coffee:
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They are nationalists first and foremost. They don't see a kinship with, say, Nazism in that way. Indeed, the Germans are foreigners we gloriously defeated in their eyes. They don't see the correlation.
 
Tubey said:
Irony.

Look, read this and tell me if you see any parallels at all: https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-1/pd-v-bd.htm

It may very well not be that, I've accepted that, he can correct me, but honestly it really wasn't outlandish to come to that conclusion. He basically defined bourgeois dictatorship, whether intentionally or not - at the very least there's parallels in approach if not the net result.

Tellingly, you've provided no interpretation of your own.
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Parallels wouldn’t make something the same as. In fact it should work with your idea that people should be listening to all sides.

It’s not telling that I’ve not provided an interpretation. I’m not going to speak for someone else
 
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