Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Billy Dean]

Jess Phillips has just taken to Twitter and praised a Labour policy. OMG.

It's little things like this that make me think the tide is going to turn this election.

 

[abelard]

who also keeps on posting links to articles that back up or have influenced his own thinking...hmmm.

I mean... would it be better if I didn't give any evidence at all?

Anyhow, sorry I hurt your feelings.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I mean... would it be better if I didn't give any evidence at all?

Anyhow, sorry I hurt your feelings.

No evidence is fine, but even if I did frequent Twitter or read the tabloids (I don't by the way) if what someone gains from that is coming from a trustworthy source (perhaps an independent writer or expert) or is based purely on fact, it doesn't make it any less valid than the sources that you are pulling your links from. Most people (I hope) are aware of the general undertones of media bias.

Even if we listen to experts they could be biased in their thinking, so we all have to interpret information and data and come to our own conclusions, which on a political thread I would hope that would be most of us that dare come and post here. Sure some are going to be vastly more informed than others but people's viewpoints should not be dismissed out of hand.

 

[abelard]

No evidence is fine, but even if I did frequent Twitter or read the tabloids (I don't by the way) if what someone gains from that is coming from a trustworthy source (perhaps an independent writer or expert) or is based purely on fact, it doesn't make it any less valid than the sources that you are pulling your links from. Most people (I hope) are aware of the general undertones of media bias.

Even if we listen to experts they could be biased in their thinking, so we all have to interpret information and data and come to our own conclusions, which on a political thread I would hope that would be most of us that dare come and post here. Sure some are going to be vastly more informed than others but people's viewpoints should not be dismissed out of hand.

I may be a bit impatient or even rude, but I'm not sure it's fair to say I've dismissed your views out of hand. I have written far more than I suspect anybody would ever want to read in response to your posts (myself included).

I understand the reasoning behind appealing to voters like you who are undecided between Labour and the Tories.

But I think that a bolder policy vision is a better approach A) because Labour's 'radical' policies under Corbyn are overwhelmingly popular (which is not to say that Corbyn is popular) B) they are overwhelmingly more appropriate in macroeconomic terms C) they are morally necessary D) there are far more potential votes from people used to support Labour but felt betrayed by Third Way compromises than Tory/Labour swing voters like yourself E) a bold and principled stand is a far better way to win them back than further compromising with Tory policy F) the media is going to target any Labour candidate in exactly the same way regardless of how moderate the leader is G) and as a result we have seen Third Way centrism fail twice already in 2010 and 2015 whereas H) the approach under Corbyn won a huge surge in party membership and support from precisely those overlooked voters which polling doesn't capture well precisely by they've mostly stopped voting and I) it is also far more likely than more insipid centrism to win back Leavers who are contemplating voting Tory because of Brexit but might be won over by a bold Labour plan to address the legitimate grievances that prompted them to vote Leave in first place.

It is a gamble, but conversely, so is choosing someone like Andy Burnham, for the reasons I've outlined and which I don't think people who idly fantasise that everything would magically be okay if only Corbyn went away are actually willing to seriously grapple with. Given Brexit and Scotland, failure to present something ambitious is the biggest gamble of all.

The number of people who actually support the politics and values which the media deems moderate is far lower than the media would lead us to believe. And when parties try to triangulate the difference between left and right, as though maximizing support is as simple as locating the exact geometrical centrepoint between the two, the number of people they are actually speaking to is increasingly small.

 

[catcherintherye]

So if Ed Miliband tries something he gets one shot at glory and that is that for that brand of politics, but Corbyn can get as many shots as he likes? Which are more or less broadly alongside the ones spectacularly rejected in 83/87/92 and to a lesser degree but still nowhere close to winning 2017.

Then there is a fact that the voters gave Labour 3 massive election wins within that time from the centre-left. I think I can spot a pattern emerging in this...

But Ed Miliband got under 30% of the vote. Jeremy Corbyn increased Labour's vote share by the largest amount any leader has ever done, and achieved the 2nd highest number of votes in 40+ years.

I'd also say, the centre left approach of Blairism was very popular (relative to now)15-20 years ago. However focussing on the narrow application as opposed to the broad principles has really done for them. In every other country those ideas ar being put back to the electorate they are being wiped out. Politics has moved on and they are busy pining for a time that has long since left.

The core aspect of the programme is flawed now. They wanted to moderately outspend their right wing rivals, not by a redistributive agenda but by utilising the majority of the proceeds of growth. So essentially a best of both worlds. The rich don't pay more taxes, and the poor get better public services. However in a world where growth rates have stalled that isn't viable. You either pull back on services (which they have done) or acknowledge there has to be some borrowing/taxation in order to pay for them. The majority of the vote base would prefer the latter.

I can fully understand the criticism about Corby's competency. However I can never understand the idea he's not on the right track.

 

[neil999]

I am not running for election at this time.

Answer the question please.

its the policies they do have that puts off potential voters, 4 day week , large borrowing, banning private schools...i dont necessarily disagree with these but can see how the perception of these policies would put off voters

 

[catcherintherye]

...the membership selecting the leader sounds democratic and correct, but I honestly don’t think it works. Even the Tory Party MPs filter the candidates down to two.

The Milliband selection was the beginning of the end, with TU membership voting for the weaker candidate over the strong one. In my opinion, that was the start of the demise. MPs should have a strong part in selecting their leader, it almost acts as a safety net.

The Party governance is now bottom-up, it results in a very inward looking strategy that simply isn’t effective. Sadly, I can’t see anyway out of it unless there’s an influx of moderate members who change how things are done. The Party is run like a Trade Union and sadly much of the quality have moved out.

Andy Burnham and David Milliband two decent, intellectual MPs who have moved on after defeats by Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn beating Burnham, Ed beating David Milliband says the system is wrong. I’m a Labour voter but I don’t support them blindly.

The core contradiction that Labour has, is that it does not have good enough people coming through who are outside of (and to the left of) the Blair/Brown ideological gaze. Blair and Brown were very adept at internal planning to ensure they were developing the next layer of leadership contenders. Even now many of Labour's best members of the shadow cabinet were people who were educated (and were quite loyal) to the overarching principles of Blairism. They just happen to believe that they should serve whoever the leader is to the best of their capabilities and this is more important than their own personal viewpoint.

This issue to me is exacerbated by social media. To me we are in a bit of a twighlight zone, whereby what is posted online is more easily traceable than 20 years ago and that people who are now trying to be MP's have not taken enough care/consideration of this (particularly in the early days). I Imagine in 20 years you will see people going into politics not really having much of a Social Media profile and if they had one, blowing it up long before they then went into politics.

The net result of this is you have huge difficulties with the selections of candidates. In all honesty there is not a broad enough field of people to select. 30-40 years ago the trade union movement being stronger (and more rooted) was able to act as a useful finishing school for Labour MP's but also a good filter. At present the left isn't able to get the calibre of candidates it needs.

There's also been a real reticence to go into being an MP. I've met lots of talented people on the left over the years, but in truth they never really had any interest or hope it could be achieved so went in different directions. To an extent you then get left with a much lower standard of candidate which is a shame.

I could go on and on about Momentum but appreciate it's a long post already. I'd just add that their fundamental issue has been not pushing outwards. They increasingly look and feel like one of the smallish left of Labour groups that existed and represent the sort of quite inward looking priorities that such groups create, rather than pushing further outwards and engaging with the hundreds of thousands of people who were initially very excited about Corbyn's ideas and what he represented. I'd say you see that a bit in terms of selections, a lot of the same old left figures standing for office, lacking the humility to realise that in order to be successful we need to be able to pass power on a bit.

 

[Eggs]

The core contradiction that Labour has, is that it does not have good enough people coming through who are outside of (and to the left of) the Blair/Brown ideological gaze. Blair and Brown were very adept at internal planning to ensure they were developing the next layer of leadership contenders. Even now many of Labour's best members of the shadow cabinet were people who were educated (and were quite loyal) to the overarching principles of Blairism. They just happen to believe that they should serve whoever the leader is to the best of their capabilities and this is more important than their own personal viewpoint.

This issue to me is exacerbated by social media. To me we are in a bit of a twighlight zone, whereby what is posted online is more easily traceable than 20 years ago and that people who are now trying to be MP's have not taken enough care/consideration of this (particularly in the early days). I Imagine in 20 years you will see people going into politics not really having much of a Social Media profile and if they had one, blowing it up long before they then went into politics.

The net result of this is you have huge difficulties with the selections of candidates. In all honesty there is not a broad enough field of people to select. 30-40 years ago the trade union movement being stronger (and more rooted) was able to act as a useful finishing school for Labour MP's but also a good filter. At present the left isn't able to get the calibre of candidates it needs.

There's also been a real reticence to go into being an MP. I've met lots of talented people on the left over the years, but in truth they never really had any interest or hope it could be achieved so went in different directions. To an extent you then get left with a much lower standard of candidate which is a shame.

I could go on and on about Momentum but appreciate it's a long post already. I'd just add that their fundamental issue has been not pushing outwards. They increasingly look and feel like one of the smallish left of Labour groups that existed and represent the sort of quite inward looking priorities that such groups create, rather than pushing further outwards and engaging with the hundreds of thousands of people who were initially very excited about Corbyn's ideas and what he represented. I'd say you see that a bit in terms of selections, a lot of the same old left figures standing for office, lacking the humility to realise that in order to be successful we need to be able to pass power on a bit.

....the quality of Labour candidates is a real concern. I do wonder if it’s a ‘broad enough field to select’, or whether the recruitment process concentrates on TU officials. You can tall the ex-shop stewards when interviewed, they talk in the same fashion they are not as rounded as others who have come in by other routes.

A bottom up organisation. Labour has always (rightly) been linked to the TUC but now it’s become an extension of the TUC. It’s too insular, increasingly a club that appeals to the few and not the many. Such a shame.

 

[catcherintherye]

....the quality of Labour candidates is a real concern. I do wonder if it’s a ‘broad enough field to select’, or whether the recruitment process concentrates on TU officials. You can tall the ex-shop stewards when interviewed, they talk in the same fashion they are not as rounded as others who have come in by other routes.

A bottom up organisation. Labour has always (rightly) been linked to the TUC but now it’s become an extension of the TUC. It’s too insular, increasingly a club that appeals to the few and not the many. Such a shame.

It's funny really, as my grandad (a miner) ended up being heavily involved (not sure if he stood) for Labour via that route!

There are certainly questions about trade unionism. Part of the issues we have currently are that they don't look and feel very 21st century. We have (in my view) an enormous need for trade unions currently, you look at the buying culture in workplaces, the MeToo movement highlighting endemic harassment but in truth the union movement is a long way back on these questions.

If I were to boil it down, I think the entirety of the left need to listen better. Often when shop stewards are on you get men who like to talk at people. To me to do that role well you need to be more approachable, empathic, and be able to listen to people. So undoubtedly part of this culture needs to be tackled at source.

Much like the question for Momentum, the question does need to be asked why are we not connecting to the anger people clearly have at the growing inequality in society. One aspect of that I think is an inability to listen.

As for the 2nd part I'd say we have both. There is clearly a desire to select potential MP's that reflect the new direction the Labour has gone in. However the quality of candidate isn't there in a lot of cases. Or the left are not flexible enough to unearth them.

To shortcut the approach there has been a desire to get TU officials in (particularly from Unite) but it's very much a sticking plaster approach and does little to deal with the more fundamental problems. A similar process happened under Benn /Foot in the 80's, where an unwillingness to grapple fundamental questions masked a wider decline.

 

[dwightschrute]

...I remember David Milliband being interviewed by Sky News foreign expert (Marshall? He’s left since). Anyway, Marshall is a very sharp mind, amazing knowledge of Middle East politics and interesting to listen to. He asked Milliband a lengthy question with very specific detail about a very specific incident. Milliband knew his portfolio to such an extent, he gave a full response with explicit detail.

Marshall recognised that Milliband had corrected something he asked but not in an obvious or point scoring way. He apologised to Milliband for not having his detail correct and thanked him for the way he responded.

That moment stuck with me. David Milliband had a big brain but he was a class act. There’s something very wrong with Labour when David Milliband and Andy Burnham are not only overlooked, they feel they have to progress careers away from Parliament.

I’d feel a whole lot better if they were running the show going into this election.

Gets it from his dad the great Marxist thinker Ralph Miliband

His books are brilliants especially Parliamentary Socialism, the best book on Labour's history and the infighting between the Labour left and right there has ever been. Whats happening now is nothing new at all

 

[tsubaki]

....the quality of Labour candidates is a real concern. I do wonder if it’s a ‘broad enough field to select’, or whether the recruitment process concentrates on TU officials. You can tall the ex-shop stewards when interviewed, they talk in the same fashion they are not as rounded as others who have come in by other routes.

A bottom up organisation. Labour has always (rightly) been linked to the TUC but now it’s become an extension of the TUC. It’s too insular, increasingly a club that appeals to the few and not the many. Such a shame.

Eggs it has always got a lot of its PPCs from the trade union movement; this is not a new development.

 

[Eggs]

Eggs it has always got a lot of its PPCs from the trade union movement; this is not a new development.

...I know that, but it seems to be getting more exclusive. Heard the Shadow Health Minister on news outlets today, much more rounded and appealing tone to his delivery.

it’s part of my view that Labour aren’t being strategically clever. TUs use cliche’s that sound like they’ve come directly from the ‘little red book’. The policies are fine, but the communication will not persuade the unpersuaded.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I may be a bit impatient or even rude, but I'm not sure it's fair to say I've dismissed your views out of hand. I have written far more than I suspect anybody would ever want to read in response to your posts (myself included).

I got to this part and was overcome by dread that several more paragraphs would follow lol

Seriously though, you are clearly well read, so your contributions are appreciated. If you could find a way of condensing them into tweets though...

 

[orly]

I got to this part and was overcome by dread that several more paragraphs would follow lol

Hahhaha I lost it altogether at "maybe rude".

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Hahhaha I lost it altogether at "maybe rude".

I liked @abelard, so don't mind a bit of aloofness and condescension. Heck, if I was paid £15 an hour to moderate this place I might even have the time to read it all.