Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Connor]

Johnny McDonell bringing forward Universal Basic Income.

A great idea, which has to be adapted and implemented correctly, but is also necessary as we move forward.

 

[tsubaki]

Johnny McDonell bringing forward Universal Basic Income.

A great idea, which has to be adapted and implemented correctly, but is also necessary as we move forward.

TBH I think its a terrible idea - as the fact Musk, Zuckerberg and Branson think its a great idea should tell you.

Why should businesses pay people a living wage when they can get the state to do so?

 

[abelard]

TBH I think its a terrible idea - as the fact Musk, Zuckerberg and Branson think its a great idea should tell you.

Why should businesses pay people a living wage when they can get the state to do so?

Not necessarily a supporter... but the idea is that you would fund it by taxing business (or better still, wealth) properly, and that if employers wanted anyone to turn up to work at all, they would need to increase their terms in a hurry

Silicon Valley wants UBI as a means to scrap every other service that the government provides, whereas the fully automated luxury communism crowd wants it to supplement what we already have. the two concepts can't really be conflated...

 

[tsubaki]

Not necessarily a supporter... but the idea is that you would fund it by taxing business (or better still, wealth) properly, and that if employers wanted anyone to turn up to work at all, they would need to increase their terms in a hurry

Silicon Valley wants UBI as a means to scrap every other service that the government provides, whereas the fully automated luxury communism crowd wants it to supplement what we already have. the two concepts can't really be conflated...

Indeed, but the danger is that its Silicon Valley who have historically been able to get their ideas in rather than the Bastanis of this world; if it comes in I am sure within a very short time it would be almost everyone on gig / agency type work with penalties if you don't "do your bit".

If Labour are going to tout ideas to help the poor, I'd much rather they do things that aren't so open to abuse - like massively expanding the number of council homes and offering a fair way to sell them to tenants, cutting the cost of public transport (or making it free at the point of use) and reducing the cost of education - in short reducing the cost of living for most whilst not damaging the security and confidence that jobs with a bit of permanence bring.

 

[peteblue]

Johnny McDonell bringing forward Universal Basic Income.

A great idea, which has to be adapted and implemented correctly, but is also necessary as we move forward.

Haven’t two countries already trialled this and deemed it unaffordable......

 

[Connor]

TBH I think its a terrible idea - as the fact Musk, Zuckerberg and Branson think its a great idea should tell you.

Why should businesses pay people a living wage when they can get the state to do so?

I get the argument that it could be used as a 'gateway' to allowing businesses to stop paying proper wages and things of that nature. But, I view it as plenty of others do - as a safety net top up to already sufficient wage that stops the use of things like payday loan services.

Not as 'luxury communism' but as a support for families.

Plus, it cuts through the bull that is going about claiming benefits and child tax credits.

Haven’t two countries already trialled this and deemed it unaffordable......

"which has to be adapted and implemented correctly"

Please do read properly Peter.

 

[catcherintherye]

No, certainly not. Attacking the Israeli state for their actions is exactly the same as denouncing any other state and indeed they should be called out for many of their actions...but it should be identified as the Israelis doing this and not Jews as a collective....

The problem you have mate, is the Zionist lobby conflate the two. In their opinion they speak for all of Judaism. You then have a mixture of out and out anti-semites who agree with them (from my experience most of these tend to be right wing, but also there are sections of the peripheral parts of the left who have made alliances on tactical questions around anti-war) or just out and out stupid people who can't see/understand there's a difference between Judaism and Zionism. Thats not to say there isn't an overlap, or that Zionism isn't the majority strand within Judaism either but I do think the conflation is extremely problematic.

In the same way all arguing all Christians believe transubstantiation when it's incorrect to do so.

 

[catcherintherye]

Haven’t two countries already trialled this and deemed it unaffordable......

I'm not sure on UBI. The principle behind it always seems quite sensible to me, but the practicality of it often means it doesn't what it says on the tin. The likelihood is, people like me get more of a cut (who don't really need it) and the poorest would be hit by the inflation that is caused.

I think it as trialled actually quite well in a Nordic country, but there are very different attitudes there!

 

[catcherintherye]

There were just as many Jewish protestors opposing them as supporting their protest (which they are entitled too). The difference is, the Jewish people countering their protest don't use anti-semitic language and overtures to describe them. Thats the tragedy in all of this, forget Corbyn, Jewish people who lost loved ones in the Holocaust are told they are anti-semitic because they oppose the creation of a religious state.

Meanwhile leaders like Orban who spout anti-semitic conspiracy theories about Jewish people are given a warm welcome by said state who if you hold a critical opinion towards you are a Nazi.

It's a sad state of affairs really. I support any Jewish person and their right to protest and they absolutely have the right to hold a theological position on the Holy lands or the ability for Jewish people to ever live safely in gentile countries. These are important debates and their position needs to be treated with respect. However what I will never accept, is if you take a different theological, philosophical or practical position to them this automatically means you are a racist. Thats an extremely dangerous path to tread down for me.

I hate to bring this up again, but I read after posting this, the guy many (often none Jewish) people were targeting was in fact not only Jewish but also a survivor of the Holocaust. Throwing around accusation of racist at him for having an opinion about a country is an absolute disgrace, especially after what he has gone through, and Jeremy Corbyn should not apologise for sitting on a platform with him (in all honesty the media outlets accusing him for racism for doing so ought to re-examine their perspective).

 

[Number_25]

There is a concerted effort to undermine a mass movement, built on the ideal of making society a fairer more prosperous place.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

It's not Jeremy Corbyn they're scared of.

It's you.

 

[abelard]

Indeed, but the danger is that its Silicon Valley who have historically been able to get their ideas in rather than the Bastanis of this world; if it comes in I am sure within a very short time it would be almost everyone on gig / agency type work with penalties if you don't "do your bit".

If Labour are going to tout ideas to help the poor, I'd much rather they do things that aren't so open to abuse - like massively expanding the number of council homes and offering a fair way to sell them to tenants, cutting the cost of public transport (or making it free at the point of use) and reducing the cost of education - in short reducing the cost of living for most whilst not damaging the security and confidence that jobs with a bit of permanence bring.

yes, definancialising/investing in infrastructure and education is where I'd start

on the other hand, all of the latest social science research suggests that the quickest and easiest way to reduce poverty is just to give people the money and let them sort what to do with it themselves

 

[peteblue]

I'm not sure on UBI. The principle behind it always seems quite sensible to me, but the practicality of it often means it doesn't what it says on the tin. The likelihood is, people like me get more of a cut (who don't really need it) and the poorest would be hit by the inflation that is caused.

I think it as trialled actually quite well in a Nordic country, but there are very different attitudes there!

It’s been trialled in Canada and Finland, both of whom I believe have cancelled it. It’s a shame because if you could get this right it could transform many lives. The trick though is for it not to be money for nothing. Utopia for me would be people all getting similar amounts while doing a job that they are best skilled for, so no difference in salary from a burger flipper to a solicitor or banker, or even a footballer. It will never happen of course, but one day when AI and robots take over almost all required jobs we will need such a working system......

 

[catcherintherye]

It’s been trialled in Canada and Finland, both of whom I believe have cancelled it. It’s a shame because if you could get this right it could transform many lives. The trick though is for it not to be money for nothing. Utopia for me would be people all getting similar amounts while doing a job that they are best skilled for, so no difference in salary from a burger flipper to a solicitor or banker, or even a footballer. It will never happen of course, but one day when AI and robots take over almost all required jobs we will need such a working system......

It's an interesting idea and it might shift people's thinking, but for me I'm not sure on it. You look at the figures involved and I think you can achieve the same benefits you are after for a lower fee. I know it would be unpopular but you could just up benefits if you really wanted too.

 

[abelard]

It’s been trialled in Canada and Finland, both of whom I believe have cancelled it. It’s a shame because if you could get this right it could transform many lives. The trick though is for it not to be money for nothing. Utopia for me would be people all getting similar amounts while doing a job that they are best skilled for, so no difference in salary from a burger flipper to a solicitor or banker, or even a footballer. It will never happen of course, but one day when AI and robots take over almost all required jobs we will need such a working system......

Neither cancelled it because it was failing, but because right-wing governments were elected, and pulled the plug before the experiments had run their course - though a small town in Manitoba (Dauphin) ran a (by all accounts) fairly successful experiment with UBI back in the 1970s

it has had even more success when applied to rural communites in the developing world, and, quite apart from all the hot air produced anytime anything enters the realm of popular political debate, it is quietly beginning to transform the international development aid sector, very much for the better

you should read more about it, Pete (for example). i can understand the logic behind the assumption that it would just mean people sitting around playing video games all day, but by all accounts, this sort of outcome rarely happens

Utopia for me would be people all getting similar amounts while doing a job that they are best skilled for

I believe otherwise known as "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

Best to take @Joey66's advice and avoid Googling the source of that one ; )

 

[peteblue]

Neither cancelled it because it was failing, but because right-wing governments were elected, and pulled the plug before the experiments had run their course - though a small town in Manitoba (Dauphin) ran a (by all accounts) fairly successful experiment with UBI back in the 1970s

it has had even more success when applied to rural communites in the developing world, and, quite apart from all the hot air produced anytime anything enters the realm of popular political debate, it is quietly beginning to transform the international development aid sector, very much for the better

you should read more about it, Pete (for example). i can understand the logic behind the assumption that it would just mean people sitting around playing video games all day, but by all accounts, this sort of outcome rarely happens

Indeed but as the author points out “Lowrey explores the potential of such a sweeping policy and the challenges the movement faces, among them contradictory aims, uncomfortable costs, and, most powerfully, the entrenched belief that no one should get something for nothing “

As I said, come AI and robots, many jobs will simply disappear, but there will need to be something that gives humankind a challenge other than just playing computer games......