The Great Disconnect - why we love our team but need the club to rebuild our trust

[Barnfred 55]

I'm very much against fan representatives.

Football is by its nature a very divisive thing. A fan representative can not talk for all fans and some of the groups that claim to be representative of the supporters have pretty much disgraced themselves in my eyes.

As a club I don't think we are bad at taking in mind what the general fan wants anyway.

We tend to keep/sack our manager at roughly the right times, we tend to put out decent merchandise and events that the fans enjoy, we are very good in the community as mentioned in the OP and tend to go about things in a dignified way. Its very rare that our clubs name is mentioned in a negative light and even the new badge fiasco was dealt with in the end. (best premier league points scoring badge ever...come back beehive badge.)

So what else is there to represent other than saying "spend more money on boss players" Every club wants that, every club hierarchy is aware of that so what really is the point of it?

Besides...we already have a supporter on the board.

You make some good valid points there mate. As a matter of interest is anyone aware of any other major club where they have fan representation on the board. If so how is it working?

 

[Barnfred 55]

He knows that ship has sailed. In Davek we trust

Not so sure mate. He's an avid poster on the Martinez Belgium thread.

 

[Barnfred 55]

It's probably a success because it's nothing to do with the club. Imagine the likes of Elstone trying to coordinate community outreach programmes? He'd be trying to flog prosthetic legs to former soldiers with missing limbs.

Doesn't DBB run Eitc. She certainly used to She's on the Everton board.

 

[davek]

Doesn't DBB run Eitc. She certainly used to She's on the Everton board.

It's the club's official charity. But it's separate from it and self financing.

 

[The Esk]

You make some good valid points there mate. As a matter of interest is anyone aware of any other major club where they have fan representation on the board. If so how is it working?

Off the top of my head, Barnsley, Portsmouth, Millwall and Carlisle - there's several more where supporter trusts are represented. Swansea for example have Stuart McDonald on their board (fans trust owns roughly 20%)

 

[Barnfred 55]

As always a really thought provoking post Esk. As I’ve been saying on another thread to Ashtonian I think the issues of communication are not just of an ends themselves, but stem from essential flaws of Kenwright. Moshiri has both money and skills to be able to grow businesses. Kenwright lacked both of those things. The entirety of his ownership of Everton I believe was based around the idea of pulling the wool over supporters eyes.

When you understand things in those terms, that we were governed by a chairman who had neither the money nor the connections/ability to make re-build Everton it becomes very clear why actions were taken. Kenwright developed, arguably even created the notion of “plucky little Everton” and relied heavily on golden age thinking. Everton are a small plucky team, from a poor City port that could never dream of competing with the megamoney of London or even Manchester. We should take an almost Calvanist pride in our roots and fulfil our role as a salt of the earth club.

I think this is in part why people liked us as you described. They pitied us, felt unthreatened by us. They liked us as they might like the guy who cleans your windows but always does so politely and never asks them for more money. For them we probably represented football in a purer age; working class fan, older ground, not sacking managers, English owner etc.

Unfortunately for Kenwright there is a collective memory and living memory of supporters who he had to sell that vision too that knew it to be untrue. They have seen us win titles and European trophies and know there was a time when that was our aspiration. It’s to great credit that these fans have educated younger Evertonians who may never have seen us win a trophy (for 16 years under Kenwright) that we deserve better.

That spirit was never allowed to be broken by the regime. I do believe that for many within the club they were frustrated by supporters, I’m sure many grew to hate them. It’s why people like Ian Ross allegedly referred to the fans as drunken knobheads, or allegedly would sign up multiple accounts to go onto forums to shift opinion. It’s why Kenwright refused to answer why we sold Arteta when his manager didn’t want too, and verbally supporters when they questioned him. The culture of silence was a product of a culture where sections of the fan base refused to accept Kenwrights vision of Everton as none entities.

You make a great point about the OOC. Of all the episodes of Kenwright that was the most shameful. It rocketed under his control and on one of the few times he did speak to fans he stated he didn’t even know what that was. The fact it had risen by several hundred percent and he didn’t know it existed always rang alarm bells for me. That summer we sold Arteta, had we OOC risen by say 80% under his tenure not the several hundred we could have kept Arteta and paid his wages from that saving. I had no issue with paying those costs if they were essential, but the Chiarman should know what they are and make a judgement call if they were more important than keeping key players.

I hope things can improve. Moshiri has both the finance in place and the capability to return us to where most Evertonians know we ought to be. He seems to be going through Jim White and communicating, and in the interview spoke more sense and honesty is 10 minutes than I’d heard from Kenwright in 10 years. He took responsibility for why Stones left as opposed to ducking the question and attacking those asking it. You may not like his reasoning but you can at least understand it.

This is the big flaw to Kenwrights regime, they viewed fans as the enemy trying to wreck his plan as opposed to reasonable people who just want a bit of clarity. I don’t massively like Jim White but he is a well known broadcaster and good at what he does. Speaking to him is broadcasting the message to millions of people that we are back. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get more involved with Everton, and while I don’t like him I’d welcome him on board. He’s clearly talented at what he does and you can’t get enough of them in the club.

The other final point, and I’m glad Moshiri mentioned this in the interview is we wiped the debt. I suspect that the OOC was always down to shady payments made to people on the board to cover debt repayments. You only need to read about Phillip Green now to see what sort of human he is and how he’d treat our club. Moshiri wiping the debt off, and placing that as important as a new manager and a new ground is very telling.

You are right we need better communication. Unfortunately for a lot of fans we will only be happen when Kenwright has gone. Partly out of malice, I think after his conduct he doesn’t deserve to be sharing in the rewards now, but more importantly because I think he will undermine Moshiri and mean he has to compromise on the fundamental changes that are needed.

Great post mate.

 

[Steve Wigan]

Interesting first post in this thread, and in some ways I'm surprised that it came from The Esk, although I suspect his only aim was to create a catalyst for discussion. The problem is people immediately 'take sides' and lack of respect for 'the other side' leads to fruitless argument. A fan on the board might cosmetically 'represent the fans' but we all know that he or she would try to represent his own view...all very well for fans on 'his side' but not much use to the large number of fans who have different views. I think that fans on other clubs boards are simply a bit of meaningless PR. In the same way that a lot of so called 'transperency' is not transparency at all,just meaningless waffle in the cause of PR.
The Esk makes a valid point about our great reputation as a 'well run club' and it cannot be denied(although many will try) that as well as EITC and the other great things the club does, a contributory factor to our good reputation AMONGST THOSE THAT RUN OTHER CLUBS is the good rep that Bill K has with them.
One of the skills in running any business, large or small, sports or manufacturing, any business ,is to make sure that you have a good reputation and do not wash your dirty linen in public, and keep skeletons in the cupboard if at all possible. This is not 'treating the fans badly', its simply taking care of business.
I have work to do but will certainly return to this later, it could be a productive thread, as long as its not hijacked by the usual suspects(you see...its almost impossible for fans not to 'take sides'). Lets have a thread were all opinions are treated with equal respect.

 

[D410]

I don,t see anyway to improve the situation unless the club is gutted at the board level. Sadly there is no chance of that whilst Bill keeps adding his mates to the board.

Sky have created a a fate and wide trough and the snouts are in it till the bitter end.

I hope the majority fans turn there back on the club till we get the club we deserve.

 

[catcherintherye]

Interesting first post in this thread, and in some ways I'm surprised that it came from The Esk, although I suspect his only aim was to create a catalyst for discussion. The problem is people immediately 'take sides' and lack of respect for 'the other side' leads to fruitless argument. A fan on the board might cosmetically 'represent the fans' but we all know that he or she would try to represent his own view...all very well for fans on 'his side' but not much use to the large number of fans who have different views. I think that fans on other clubs boards are simply a bit of meaningless PR. In the same way that a lot of so called 'transperency' is not transparency at all,just meaningless waffle in the cause of PR.
The Esk makes a valid point about our great reputation as a 'well run club' and it cannot be denied(although many will try) that as well as EITC and the other great things the club does, a contributory factor to our good reputation AMONGST THOSE THAT RUN OTHER CLUBS is the good rep that Bill K has with them.
One of the skills in running any business, large or small, sports or manufacturing, any business ,is to make sure that you have a good reputation and do not wash your dirty linen in public, and keep skeletons in the cupboard if at all possible. This is not 'treating the fans badly', its simply taking care of business.
I have work to do but will certainly return to this later, it could be a productive thread, as long as its not hijacked by the usual suspects(you see...its almost impossible for fans not to 'take sides'). Lets have a thread were all opinions are treated with equal respect.

Good post Steve. I don't really see sides, or at least the only side that matters to me is that you are an Evertonian! I think we probably take opposing views on Kenwright but I enjoy reading your perspective on events as it helps shape my own, sometimes sympathetically towards Kenwright but often solidifies a criticism of him. So we should definitely be respectful of differing views.

I think fan ownership is rather indicative as opposed to central. However I do believe fan involvement and representation is the optimum. The football club exists for the supporters. In the end only by having ownership that reflects that will we ever get the national game back. However it is a long shot. Having a token fan as a board member is a step in the right direction, but only a small step.

We do have a good reputation in football. Bill I think has made Everton in his own image about 15 years. What you always have to acknowledge in any system are strengths and weaknesses. That if you make wholesale changes unfortunately some good aspects are lost as well as negative elements in the way of progress. I do think Moshiri wants to move Everton in another direction and I think Kenwright being around is holding that change back.

The image we are held in football now, I would say we are liked as opposed to being feared. Whether we are respected (which is a word that saddles between the two) would depend on ones definition. I don't think we are respected though. You can see from the tantrum Southampton pulled when we tried to take their manager that they don't see Everton as a threat. The continued comments from Le Tissier and others about backward steps are indicative of this. Yes this is partly down to their ignorance, us not winning a trophy for 16 years but some of the blame has to be taken from the club. In life how you view yourselves will ultimately reflect how others view you.

I do also agree with you that not washing dirty linen in public is not "treating the fans badly". The last thing an ownership should do is provide a running commentary of every mistake or problem. However I think Kenwrights regime went far beyond not washing the Dirty Linen in public. There was never any communication in 16 years about how he intended to make us compete with the top teams. Where I think we would both have some agreement is that this wasn't simply an issue of communication, I am not convinced Kenwright had either the capability or the finance to have any answer to this question himself. You can't expect someone to communicate a message they don't know themselves.

I suspect Kenwright bought Everton and found the challenge was beyond his skillset. This then escalating as the game became awash with money and the gap which he found hard to bridge grew hugely. Sides like Chelsea and Manchester City overtook us. You could well say that the responsibility for this lies as those underneath Kenwright. That he was a figurehead and needed competency below him. It's a reasonable argument, but I do think they took their lead from him.

What he did do successfully, and deserves credit for, was given he had no idea how to get Everton competing again he steadied the ship. Managers were given stability. Players has a secure environment to develop in. We kept prices competitive for supporters and lots of work in the community and with our academy. We cultivated an image of the plucky underdog. He was very successful in this, but I'm not convinced it was a label that most Evertonians were happy with. For me that's the crux of the issue with Kenwright, it's not communication at it's heart, it's about a differing vision of what the club should be.

 

[Blues Harp]

I don,t see anyway to improve the situation unless the club is gutted at the board level. Sadly there is no chance of that whilst Bill keeps adding his mates to the board.

Sky have created a a fate and wide trough and the snouts are in it till the bitter end.

I hope the majority fans turn there back on the club till we get the club we deserve.

You are advocating fans boycotting the club? Really? Can't find much to disagree with in your preceding paragraphs though...

 

[The Esk]

Interesting first post in this thread, and in some ways I'm surprised that it came from The Esk, although I suspect his only aim was to create a catalyst for discussion

Hi Steve. For the avoidance of doubt there are two motivations in what I wrote. One was as you say to promote discussion, but the second was to put on record the poor communications and governance of the club and possible remedies to this situation. I agree with your point about discussing the issues rather than the individuals.

There is a huge disconnect between what is good for the football club and what is good for shareholders. The fact that for the last two decades the board has consisted largely of the largest shareholders amplifies this point. The strategy of Premier League survival on the back of no investment has paid rich rewards for shareholders in terms of the value of their holdings - it has not however maintained our position at the top of the game, but only increased the gap between ourselves and other leading clubs.

In addition is the failure to recognise the club as a community asset (this could be thrown at all clubs to be fair) and as such the role the fans play in making the club what it is. The disdain for which fan (and smaller shareholder) views are held, and the levels of information are shocking. It is my assertion that the club would be in a better position for addressing these issues. I use the EiTC as an example of positive engagement and the benefits of all parties.

 

[The Esk]

I don,t see anyway to improve the situation unless the club is gutted at the board level. Sadly there is no chance of that whilst Bill keeps adding his mates to the board.

Sky have created a a fate and wide trough and the snouts are in it till the bitter end.

I make the point that it is very poor corporate governance to have the board made of exclusively large shareholders, executives and representatives of large shareholders. In these situations the club is run for the benefit of shareholders (I know their fiduciary duties @hibbo'sclass) and not in the interests of the club as a competitive football club. It is with the correct board, possible to align both club abd shareholder interests.

 

[Steve Wigan]

Hi Steve. For the avoidance of doubt there are two motivations in what I wrote. One was as you say to promote discussion, but the second was to put on record the poor communications and governance of the club and possible remedies to this situation. I agree with your point about discussing the issues rather than the individuals.

There is a huge disconnect between what is good for the football club and what is good for shareholders. The fact that for the last two decades the board has consisted largely of the largest shareholders amplifies this point. The strategy of Premier League survival on the back of no investment has paid rich rewards for shareholders in terms of the value of their holdings - it has not however maintained our position at the top of the game, but only increased the gap between ourselves and other leading clubs.

In addition is the failure to recognise the club as a community asset (this could be thrown at all clubs to be fair) and as such the role the fans play in making the club what it is. The disdain for which fan (and smaller shareholder) views are held, and the levels of information are shocking. It is my assertion that the club would be in a better position for addressing these issues. I use the EiTC as an example of positive engagement and the benefits of all parties.

Very quickly(trying to get something done before the weekend!)...re your second paragraph, there is no doubt that the board did consist of,simply, the largest shareholders....maybe with Moshiri becoming a majority shareholder this will change..already there are three board members who could be termed 'working board members', at least...Elstone, DBB and Moshiris 'representative'. Whatever some 'fans' think of Elstone, he is there to do a job, and his job may become easier if he has more tools at his disposal...alternatively he may well be considered inadequate by the one person that matters, Mr Moshiri. I think Bill,( and we must treat Bill and Jon Woods as one entity here), is still around because that is what Moshiri wants. Bill knows the club(and, one might say, 'the dirty linen'), and will advise Moshiri, but not influence him beyond the medium term, and certainly not on major issues. It is very understandable that Moshiri would want this initially, but Bill and Jon will not be on the board forever.

Personally I have a feeling that Mr Moshiri is deadly serious about Everton, and he would not be a good business man if he were not already sourcing more investment on top of his own input.

 

[D410]

You are advocating fans boycotting the club? Really? Can't find much to disagree with in your preceding paragraphs though...

Yes I do. The only power the fans have left is to impact the brand which is very important to the board.

 

[D410]

I make the point that it is very poor corporate governance to have the board made of exclusively large shareholders, executives and representatives of large shareholders. In these situations the club is run for the benefit of shareholders (I know their fiduciary duties @hibbo'sclass) and not in the interests of the club as a competitive football club. It is with the correct board, possible to align both club abd shareholder interests.

Applaud the OP, Esk. Lets hope we find a way out of this mess somehow collectively and with a common sense purpose but sadly from my perspective we have reached the stage were we have to fight fire with fire.