The C word

[toffeejack]

What was his legacy as a manager?

surely the dogs of war is a legacy?

 

[harry]

Probably the most annoying line I see pedalled by Everton fans is 'Moyes bottled the cup final'.

Absolute rubbish. We'd beaten excellent Liverpool and Villa sides on the way, come back against Stoke and held our nerve v Man U.

To then face a side who had been 30 seconds from knocking out the greatest club side in history and reaching a second consecutive CL final without our three best players and to go down to a Lampard wonder goal after Neville slipped was not
a bottle job. We were quite simply outplayed by one of the top sides in Europe at the time.

I dont want to be negative but didnt liverpool go down to 10 men and we drew 0-0 wit h manchester united reserves whilst hardly having a shot at goal. I dont want re write history or anything.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I dont want to be negative but didnt liverpool go down to 10 men and we drew 0-0 wit h manchester united reserves whilst hardly having a shot at goal. I dont want re write history or anything.

Liverpool went down to ten men late on in the second leg of the tie. We'd played really well even 11 v 11 and was partly the reason Lucas got sent off as he was having to make so many tackles.

We then beat a very good Villa side with us putting out a hugely depleted line up. We came back from a goal down v Boro and held our nerve in the semi pen shoot out.

That was a good cup run with difficult ties and some quality football.

 

[harry]

Liverpool went down to ten men late on in the second leg of the tie. We'd played really well even 11 v 11 and was partly the reason Lucas got sent off as he was having to make so many tackles.

We then beat a very good Villa side with us putting out a hugely depleted line up. We came back from a goal down v Boro and held our nerve in the semi pen shoot out.

That was a good cup run with difficult ties and some quality football.

I hate to say this but i remember them being on top until the sending off, i was at both games. We scored first at anfield quite early and if i remember right held on for dear life even after they scored.

I remember we was in quite good form in the league and beat fulham on the last game before the final. I thought we had a chance. I went to the final, i dont think bottled it, we were just beaten by a much better side.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I hate to say this but i remember them being on top until the sending off, i was at both games. We scored first at anfield quite early and if i remember right held on for dear life even after they scored.

I remember we was in quite good form in the league and beat fulham on the last game before the final. I thought we had a chance. I went to the final, i dont think bottled it, we were just beaten by a much better side.

No way they had the better of that Goodison game. Yes we hung on at Anfield in the cup, but we played well against them in the league at Anfield around the ties and then at Goodison. No doubt over the two legs we deserved it.

 

[Allezfan]

That goodison game was the most negative dull game ever. With 30 seconds of joy in extra time to make up for it.

Under Moyes we were always crap in cups and always crap in derbies. And under martinez we've mostly been crap at them both as well.

I just don't think we get worse the closer we get to the final.

 

[vagant59]

We can't beat Liverpool, even if we beat City, Liverpool will beat us in the final even if they put out their under 12s

Is that you bottling it

 

[MrGrumpy]

Is that you bottling it

No it's a fact, we've beaten them what once in 5 years. We have a real inferiority complex, when it comes to Liverpool

 

[dannyboy]

No way they had the better of that Goodison game. Yes we hung on at Anfield in the cup, but we played well against them in the league at Anfield around the ties and then at Goodison. No doubt over the two legs we deserved it.

Haha just look at the starting XI for both teams in the Anfield cup tie.

Everton: Howard, Hibbert, Jagielka, Lescott, Baines, Anichebe (Gosling 71), Castillo (Rodwell 76), Neville, Osman, Pienaar, Cahill.

Liverpool: Reina, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Carragher, Dossena, Kuyt, Alonso, Mascherano, Babel (Riera 75), Gerrard, Torres.

It's a miracle we got out of the game without a 4-0 drubbing tbh, think that's what they beat Real Madrid by 2 months later?

 

[degsy]

Sh

I had this conversation in real life a little while ago but lets bring it up again with the man city semi final at the half way stage.

Everton have over the last 15 years been a half decent team who have never actually done anything. We've been allright but never managed to click and make that quite goodness count. Some of our fans say this is because we are chokers. That we have the talent but not the bottle. That we can win games that mean nothing but lose when it really matters.

I very strongly disagree with that. Bottlers are really talented teams like the south african cricket team or the all blacks during the 1990s and 2000s who maul everyone they play in friendlies and group stages and then fall to pieces in semis and quarters. We have never been truly dominant. We just aren't good enough over 38 games. We don't normally win the first 36 games and then fall apart at the end, we just lose some, draw some and don't win enough over those 38 games.

The thing most people point to is our failiure to win a cup as emplified by the quarter final against wigan. Which we were terrible in but it was one of 6 quarter finals we played under moyes and martinez and we have won 4 of those 6 (the other loss being arsenal away 2 years ago). Our record in the third round, otoh, is winning 16 out of 28. Which is worse. If you lose nearly half of your third round games, you're not good enough to a choker. We are just as likely to lose a third round game as a qf or a semi final or a final, that's nothing to do with the pressue. We're just not good enough.

The other instance people point to is 4th place. We've been in a serious fight for 4th place three times and twice we let it slip at the end. The obvious counter is that we didn't let it slip the third time but lets go on.

Two years ago we beat arsenal to go 2 points ahead of them with 6 games to go and our fate entirely in our own hands. Sunderland away then palace and man u at home, southampton away, city at home and hull away. We won 3 but lost the other 3. Which given we only lost 5 in our first 32 games is a hell of a loss of form. Arsenal won all of their 5 and we finished 7 points behind them. So choke, right?

Well no, not in my opinion. Arsenal got 79 points that season. 26 games in we had 45 points. Which meant we needed 35 points out of 12 games to get 80 points. So we needed to win all of our last 12 games to finish 4th. We won the first 7 of those 12. If our problem was pressure, where was that in the game against arsenal or the one straight after against sunderland? We just weren't a team capable of winning 12 games in a row is the point, we were knackered and short of squad players who could come in and make the difference. If we were good enough that it's choking to finish 5th then we wouldn't have been in a position where we couldn't afford to drop a point over 12 games because we wouldn't have been that far behind the pack in march.

I mean look at 2007-08 in comparison. That season we went into the game vs the team in 4th, liverpool, 2 points behind them having won 7 games out of 9 to haul them back. If it was something in our philosophy that we're ok chasing teams but then once we get 4th we throw it away (apart from in 2004-05 when we didn't) we'd have beaten them, gone one point ahead and then fell apart. We didn't, we lost and then lost to arsenal and chelsea as well and ended up 11 points behind them. That's just our standard, it's not that we choked because we were 4th and felt the pressure, that's just what we are. A good team not a great one.

I think we can beat City and Liverpool/Stoke to win the carling cup, because I don't believe everton is a team who play noticably worse in high pressure games than low pressure games. So our chances are the same as they would be if we played those teams in the league in september. Unfortunately when we do that, we tend to lose those games anyway so eh.

Short version; winners don't choke, chokers don't win...shock horror...and on that bombshell-Goodnight.

 

[Goodison Groaner]

It not that we've lost these big games... its more to do with the performances. We've frequently been the 'form horse' but that form has dropped off a cliff when its mattered most. All the more annoying is the fact that we've unusually had the rub of green on a couple of occasions - early goal on a pipping hot cup final day vs. Chelsea, should have been priceless but they cruised after that. Poor Liverpool team gifted us the lead in the Semi but the moment they moved up a gear we froze and then panicked Even when we've won, semi vs. second-string United, we haven't played well and rode our luck. I would like to see us at least play close to our capabilities on a big occasion.

 

[Kiwi]

Thought someone had cancer, thank the Lord.

 

[harry]

No way they had the better of that Goodison game. Yes we hung on at Anfield in the cup, but we played well against them in the league at Anfield around the ties and then at Goodison. No doubt over the two legs we deserved it.

It was one match, as I said I can't remember properly. I remember they started quick and I thought the sending off changed the game. My memory might be playing trick as I was probably drunk.

 

[Dharma bum411]

So the point of the thread is that Everton are a better then okay team that haven't won a cup for a while. Nice one.