The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[EverBlue86]

With respect I am not talking about some shallow media branding exercise which was trendy amongst the Islington elite for a little while.

I'm talking about a nation that once exported its nationalism across the world for 100's of years from Elizabethian through to Georgian times. That's how strongly we valued "Britishness" so much so we imposed it upon more than a third of the world. Today we value it so little that we are not even prepared to promote it to our own younger generations nor expect immigrants to this country to embrace almost any aspect of it.

I am a Labour party member as you know, have been for 30 plus years. Why did the left allow nationalism to become the domain of the right firstly with the conservatives and now with a chancer like Farage and his ilk.

We (the Labour Party) created a policy vacuum around national identity collectively and individually particularly among the working class. Farage has barged straight through and is capturing that ground in spades.

The problem is the left is split between working class "white van man" and a middle class guardian reading intelligentsia, the said middle class have got into roles into the higher echeons of the new labour party and have imposed their beliefs and ideology into the party whilst still expecting those working class white van men, who haven't taught over in China or Cambodia, who haven't got a top class degree in sociology, who haven't seen the "benefits" of immigration to vote for them.

That in a nutshell is what's happened mate and like you say UKIP have now took a big foothold in that area.

 

[bluemangroup]

Buzzword me up there lad.

 

[The Esk]

The problem is the left is split between working class "white van man" and a middle class guardian reading intelligentsia, the said middle class have got into roles into the higher echeons of the new labour party and have imposed their beliefs and ideology into the party whilst still expecting those working class white van men, who haven't taught over in China or Cambodia, who haven't got a top class degree in sociology, who haven't seen the "benefits" of immigration to vote for them.

That in a nutshell is what's happened mate and like you say UKIP have now took a big foothold in that area.

Good post, I agree!

 

[davek]

With respect I am not talking about some shallow media branding exercise which was trendy amongst the Islington elite for a little while.

I'm talking about a nation that once exported its nationalism across the world for 100's of years from Elizabethian through to Georgian times. That's how strongly we valued "Britishness" so much so we imposed it upon more than a third of the world. Today we value it so little that we are not even prepared to promote it to our own younger generations nor expect immigrants to this country to embrace almost any aspect of it.

I am a Labour party member as you know, have been for 30 plus years. Why did the left allow nationalism to become the domain of the right firstly with the conservatives and now with a chancer like Farage and his ilk.

We (the Labour Party) created a policy vacuum around national identity collectively and individually particularly among the working class. Farage has barged straight through and is capturing that ground in spades.

Nationalism and the left are (or should be) contradictory. The latter is internationalist in outlook. That's the answer to your question fundamentally.

The Labour Party though have always embraced it to one degree or another (nationalism). It's just that they are less convincing about it than other parties whose natural constituency it is. But there's also a structural reason: Labour's 'British pitch' was based around a working class united across nationalised industries (and you can throw in the trade union movement with that too). The decline of those nationwide mass industries and TU movement have led to the LP you have on your hands today: market oriented and offering an insipid vision to hard done by 'consumers'. They have no class base and no unifying message, so are sitting ducks for any force like UKIP who can provide that by filling the vacuum of working class nationalism left by Labour/TUism.

 

[roydo]

The problem is the left is split between working class "white van man" and a middle class guardian reading intelligentsia, the said middle class have got into roles into the higher echeons of the new labour party and have imposed their beliefs and ideology into the party whilst still expecting those working class white van men, who haven't taught over in China or Cambodia, who haven't got a top class degree in sociology, who haven't seen the "benefits" of immigration to vote for them.

That in a nutshell is what's happened mate and like you say UKIP have now took a big foothold in that area.

And the ironic thing is that the current leader, probably the greatest example of Guardian Reading Intelligentsia is only there because of the support of the Trade Unions.

 

[The Esk]

Nationalism and the left are (or should be) contradictory. The latter is internationalist in outlook. That's the answer to your question fundamentally.

The Labour Party though have always embraced it to one degree or another (nationalism). It's just that they are less convincing about it than other parties whose natural constituency it is. But there's also a structural reason: Labour's 'British pitch' was based around a working class united across nationalised industries (and you can throw in the trade union movement with that too). The decline of those nationwide mass industries have led to the LP you have on your hands today: market oriented and offering an insipid vision to hard done by 'consumers'. They have no class base and no unifying message, so are sitting ducks for any force like UKIP who can provide that.

I agree with the latter part of your post. But I would say that if there's effectively no common "enemy" at home to fight against anymore (although I would argue strongly that conservatism and market led policies should be thay enemy) then effectively create a common cause of nationalism. However do it in a way that espouses socialist principles.( I'll come back to this later as I have to be somewhere else now)

 

[peteblue]

and so they side with a cynical opportunist, who cares far less about his own political views than they do, I don't care for patriotism or nationalism in all honesty, and I see them as dangerous forces which influence irrational thinking, in the same way as religion does, as technology grows and the world becomes smaller, both nationalism and religion have become less popular in general on the @the esk 's point, as people hopefully become more enlightened and these things become less important in their lives. I don't despise all patriot's, and do get involved with that on a sporting level, just as religion has it's good point, but when these things become an ethos that become the main factor in someone's thinking it's a dangerous thing, and I certainly don't see immigration as a huge evil danger, and in no way should it be the issue that a general election is fought on

The issue for some though regarding immigration is numbers. If 1M immigrants move in, it's a lot and need to be accommodated and schooled, etc etc. If 5M move in it overwhelms the infrastructure. If 50M were to arrive there would be absolute chaos and mayhem. For some people too many have already arrived in their areas, perhaps not so near you, but what is the number that can arrive before immigration is a key issue for you ?..............give a number........

 

[peteblue]

And the ironic thing is that the current leader, probably the greatest example of Guardian Reading Intelligentsia is only there because of the support of the Trade Unions.

I bet they'd love to have that vote again......

 

[Caolam]

The Labour Party is a reactionary movement. Business exploits the working class and the labour movement reacts to protect them. Business has changed so quickly the labour movement has not been able to adapt.
The economic crash and the movement of people have further complicated the overall picture. Our current Labour Party is out dated and I'll equipped to fight for the working and lower middle classes. They need to adapt and come to terms with the modern world or they will become derelict.
If Britian and the other countries of the world want to protect political power they have to become more internationalized, if they remain insular then global companies will make individual governments irrelevant.

 

[Coach]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...house-not-act-class-warfare-whatever-sun-says

Great peice.

 

[Joey66]

Labour need a new leader ASAP - Alan Johnson would stand if Mr Bean would do the honorable thing and stand down from his leadership it just gets worse the tories get beat by UKIP and Miliband is the headlines for the wrong reasons!!

 

[EverBlue86]

Labour need a new leader ASAP - Alan Johnson would stand if Mr Bean would do the honorable thing and stand down from his leadership it just gets worse the tories get beat by UKIP and Miliband is the headlines for the wrong reasons!!

Problem is it doesn't matter who is leader of labour, if they are to keep the support of the working class they have to fundamentally change their policies.

The working class are more euroskeptic than pro EU, they are against unrestricted immigration, they are more for patriotism. The issue is Labour under the influence of the middle class university educated intelligentsia are fundamentally against these wishes. That's the problem labour have shifted to the centre on economics and to the Lib dem left on crime, immigration and the EU and that's against their core support base.

People say their Is a fragment of the right with UKIP tearing into the Tories but I would argue the fragment on the left is even more severe. You have the working and middle class tensions I have mentioned in my previous post in the labour party, alongside UKIP starting to eat into the north with their rhetoric and it will be interesting to see what happens with the Lib Dems supporters, if they flock to the greens then the greens could start to pose a threat to labour whereas if the middle class liberals flock to the "lesser of the two evils in labour" it will only lead to labour continuing it's path against the working class and more to the middle class.

 

[Joey66]

Labour would have been in a good position to win the next election if they had picked a decent leader may be you are right the damage has now been done thank the UNITE union for block voting Mr ED in!

 

[Milk]

Labour would have been in a good position to win the next election if they had picked a decent leader may be you are right the damage has now been done thank the UNITE union for block voting Mr ED in!

The Unions will get the man (or woman) that they can control. They demonstrated their power when Milibean was pushed in front of his brother (who, lets be fair, most of us assumed was by far & away the most convincing [Electorially friendly] face of the Labour Party). Whom McCluskey wants will be the next leader.

 

[Tubey]

Says it all.