Talking about our Tactics

[ClausThomsen]

For Burnley I'd go with Mina and Keane if possible. Best in the air.

But Keane is a massive fanny who'll get bullied everywhere. And sides like Burnley may be direct but it isn't always about hitting the big man's head with the first ball. It's often into feet, back to goal, holding and turning defenders with strength.

Often when they're heading it's from wide balls for a head at goal when they're in space. And Keane has been a liability in giving up space so far this season.

 

[Librarian]

For Burnley I'd go with Mina and Keane if possible. Best in the air.

1st time he’s had all 4 to choose from

 

[Barnfred 55]

Hi everyone
Can you direct me to thread, (or can we make one?) that is more objective and less personal, and more about tactics, strategy and really football stuff. I would love to have conversations about how players are running, passing, defending, attacking, about shape, strategy and tactics. Because we're a mix of people - some experts, some with coaching, playing experience, all of us have watched a lot, I'd love to share opinions and see how players are doing and how the team is responding, particularly as we seem to have a Coach who is working on different ideas. It's rare now to find managers who don't just buy their way to success, so being forced into a period of money saving will be interesting.

Nowadays we re spending A LOT of time talking about social media posts, appearance, assuming that we know what's going in players' minds, about their lifestyles, wealth etc. I know it's hard because the PL is entertainment and all about money, but it would be nice to strip it down and talk just about actual football on the pitch.

instead of just 'He can't run', 'He's slow' , 'He's Fat', 'he's a money-grabbing waster etc', let me know if we can take a different approach!

For example:
James should not play because he's an egotistical waster who chooses when he plays and is always on holiday in his private jet'
> could change to >
If James plays, the tactics need to be this, and we need so and so players around him

For example
DCL is never gonna be Kane until he stops spending time and money on clothes
> could change to>
DCL is good at X,Y,Z, and needs to work on this, and this kind of tactic is good for him.



Just seems to me I don't find anyone to talk about actual football...

Thanks for reading

Mate. If you look beyond the "two word response" hipsters on here, there are loads of us who post proper football stuff.

Just treat the ones that don't with the disdain they deserve, or better still just ignore them. Most of them are wums anyway. So just exchange views with the ones that want to talk footie. There's plenty of scope to do that and have a good crack at the same time.

 

[Shibbywiggles]

I disagree with this strongly. Shocker - Yank math type believes in stats.

That said, I don't think the stats, like xG, we do have are very good. The point of the stats is to help teams figure out how to do more of that Shoot Score Win stuff. Their purpose should be to help the players understand where to be, and when, so that they have unobstructed passing lanes into better positions and dispossess the opponent more often.

Soccer, like tennis, is a game of geometry. If teams used the stats to figure out how to generate profitable geometry for themselves while denying such geometry to the opponent, they would probably win more until the other teams caught up with that thinking.

I don’t see that as a statistical analysis though you’re talking about tactics, formation shape and player positioning and those are, and always have been, vital.
I used to play defensive midfield and within the opening minutes the most important thing for me was to work out what I needed to do that week, whether it was mark a number ten, drop deep to deal with a pacey attacking forward line or get forward more that week. Benitez and his team will be studying opposition games and individual player movements and setting us up to nullify/exploit.
This to me isn’t nonsense made up stats, it’s effective planning and formation and is vital.

Put simply, my opinion is:
Watching teams and working out how to beat them is great, bullshit stats to decide if a player is good or bad is bad.

 

[TheBigIguana]

But Keane is a massive fanny who'll get bullied everywhere. And sides like Burnley may be direct but it isn't always about hitting the big man's head with the first ball. It's often into feet, back to goal, holding and turning defenders with strength.

Often when they're heading it's from wide balls for a head at goal when they're in space. And Keane has been a liability in giving up space so far this season.

Keane is better at cutting out crosses than Godfrey and Holgate and for me it is not close at all

 

[Barnfred 55]

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground.

Same as it ever was.

Love the record but never really taken notice of the lyrics.

Brilliant

 

[Martin Alvito]

Tactics is certainly influenced by data but you also have people like Pep who just relentlessly pour over tape of matches to find tactical advantages. Xavi very well could take that approach. There are still lots of people in football that completely dismiss numbers and whether that changes or not is really dependent on someone with money adopting the approach.

In American sports the gap between someone like the A's and Yankees is still small enough that a data driven approach can change the sport. In football the gap between someone like Brentford or Midtjylland and City is so big that even an approach that is adding a lot of value and having a team massively over achieve can be dismissed because it still will never challenge the rich sides. I think that value exists and that someone leaning into it that does have the resources would change the game but I'm not sure it's likely to happen. It doesn't take long reading this forum to see that football thinking is very rigid and the traditional methods don't get challenged very much.

My sense is that Xavi probably does it Pep's way, because that's who he learned from and because he is such a genius at creating and finding spaces. He doesn't need the numbers. Mere mortals do.

I agree that football is very tradition-bound. Sooner or later, someone is likely to shake that up, the way Billy Beane did in baseball and a bunch of people like Belichick and his backroom did on the gridiron. They may not win the Prem, but they could probably get promoted up the ranks.

I don’t see that as a statistical analysis though you’re talking about tactics, formation shape and player positioning and those are, and always have been, vital.
I used to play defensive midfield and within the opening minutes the most important thing for me was to work out what I needed to do that week, whether it was mark a number ten, drop deep to deal with a pacey attacking forward line or get forward more that week. Benitez and his team will be studying opposition games and individual player movements and setting us up to nullify/exploit.
This to me isn’t nonsense made up stats, it’s effective planning and formation and is vital.

Put simply, my opinion is:
Watching teams and working out how to beat them is great, bullshit stats to decide if a player is good or bad is bad.

All good thinking. I played wing positions, mostly up the left as I got older, so I don't see the game that way. I was fast, so frequently teammates would just Route One it into the corner and have me run it down to pump a cross in. If the defender started playing off to counter that nonsense, that created different space to exploit.

DM is certainly the most 'thinking man's position' on the pitch, if you ask me. I couldn't play it because I wasn't big enough. That was why I was out on the wing, or a wing back.

What I do think the stats can probably do is identify where spaces are likely to occur, or can be created, and when to arrive in them. I look at football and I see a math problem, because I'm weird like that.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Great post, mate.

I think the 4-4-2 system the manager has used so far will be what we start with most games, with Allan and The Duke CM, with Andros (or Iwobi) and Gray as the wingers and DCL with Ricky upfront.

It works well as we get the ball forward quickly and putting balls in to DCL means he has support in Richarlison. It does leave us a little exposed at the back if Duke pushes forward, which shouldn’t be as much of an issue if we have Mina and Godfrey as CBs, but that hasn’t happened yet.

I think the addition of Rondon, could potentially help if he was to play James; as he could play a 4-3-3 formation, with James as the no 10 and 2 wide forwards and Rondon ahead of him. This could be our plan B option, or what we could potentially switch to if 4-4-2 isn’t working.

I’d like to see more of James, especially against the decent teams. I’m hoping that’s what rafael will use him for.

I don't see James starting against the better teams as I see Benitez as more of a cautious manager. But I'd love to see him introduced with 30 minutes to go if we're still in the game. Much better to win 1 game than draw 2 if you get my drift.

I think he's more likely to start against teams who are likely to park the bus. 2 reasons. Firstly we'll likely need his magic to open the defence. Secondly we're less likely to be exposed by James's lack of defensive nous.

 

[wm02]

Tactics is certainly influenced by data but you also have people like Pep who just relentlessly pour over tape of matches to find tactical advantages. Xavi very well could take that approach. There are still lots of people in football that completely dismiss numbers and whether that changes or not is really dependent on someone with money adopting the approach.

In American sports the gap between someone like the A's and Yankees is still small enough that a data driven approach can change the sport. In football the gap between someone like Brentford or Midtjylland and City is so big that even an approach that is adding a lot of value and having a team massively over achieve can be dismissed because it still will never challenge the rich sides. I think that value exists and that someone leaning into it that does have the resources would change the game but I'm not sure it's likely to happen. It doesn't take long reading this forum to see that football thinking is very rigid and the traditional methods don't get challenged very much.

Personally, I feel that statistical analysis is much more relevant (and more valuable) in a sport like baseball in which the sample sizes are huge and the action is more static.
The nature of the contracts is very different as well. In the example of the A’s, they benefited tremendously from having young, cheap pitching talent (Hudson, Mulder, and Zito) on rookie contracts and some players they got in pre-PED (Giambi and Tejada).
Outside the richest few clubs, it’s impossible for clubs to keep the young stars which is a real shame IMO

 

[TheBigIguana]

Personally, I feel that statistical analysis is much more relevant (and more valuable) in a sport like baseball in which the sample sizes are huge and the action is more static.
The nature of the contracts is very different as well. In the example of the A’s, they benefited tremendously from having young, cheap pitching talent (Hudson, Mulder, and Zito) on rookie contracts and some players they got in pre-PED (Giambi and Tejada).
Outside the richest few clubs, it’s impossible for clubs to keep the young stars which is a real shame IMO

It's clearly less relevant in more abstract sports. But there are advantages to be gained nonetheless. NBA is closer to football and has been completely revolutionized.

 

[ArtetaMoney]

I don't see James starting against the better teams as I see Benitez as more of a cautious manager. But I'd love to see him introduced with 30 minutes to go if we're still in the game. Much better to win 1 game than draw 2 if you get my drift.

I think he's more likely to start against teams who are likely to park the bus. 2 reasons. Firstly we'll likely need his magic to open the defence. Secondly we're less likely to be exposed by James's lack of defensive nous.

Yeah, I think you’re right. He seems to play better against the big teams, though. Which is why I’d like to see him start them ones.

He’s only fit for 20-25 games a season, so it might be better using him off the bench. It’s just whether he’ll be happy with that, that is the issue.

 

[Terrarian]

Sounds about right. Every side has its secrets, because if they get out into the mainstream the side loses its edge. Sooner or later, the secrets get out anyway, but it's best to ride them for as long as possible.

I saw a bit of what Xavi had to say on the subject, and it sounded like he has a very sophisticated sense of what I'm getting at with the geometry. He thinks of it in terms of space, time and the other players getting to the right space at the right time in order for the ball to be delivered. This did not surprise me, since he was such a genius at managing the game by directing the ball.

You make the pass and move, the give and go sound so complicated, kin geometry wtaf. We used to say make an angle to receive the ball all you lot have done is complicate the uncomplicated.

 

[Terrarian]

A good point about Xavi and players of his ilk, they are intelligent footballers, they generally have a picture in their heads about what their next move will be, they know where they are passing it too before they receive it. It is what makes players like him and our very own James look like they have space and time. Not a lot of players have this skill to be fair, it's what makes world class or elite stand out from the rest.

 

[APN_EFC]

Most people (me included) here don't really know anything about tactics beyond maybe "we need more width" or "he needs to get the subs on..."!

And to be fair your own examples of highbrow tactics talk "the tactics need to be this" or "DCL is good... and needs to work on this" didn't fill me with much confidence (a little vague) that you'd be contributing much to these higher-level footballing discussions either!

Best we stick to James poncing around on that boat on our coin!

Thanks...I think
I'm not really bothered about how sophisticated by contributions are - I'm not looking for a coaching job, just would like to talk more

Mate. If you look beyond the "two word response" hipsters on here, there are loads of us who post proper football stuff.

Just treat the ones that don't with the disdain they deserve, or better still just ignore them. Most of them are wums anyway. So just exchange views with the ones that want to talk footie. There's plenty of scope to do that and have a good crack at the same time.

Thanks good idea.

 

[APN_EFC]

Personally, I feel that statistical analysis is much more relevant (and more valuable) in a sport like baseball in which the sample sizes are huge and the action is more static.
The nature of the contracts is very different as well. In the example of the A’s, they benefited tremendously from having young, cheap pitching talent (Hudson, Mulder, and Zito) on rookie contracts and some players they got in pre-PED (Giambi and Tejada).
Outside the richest few clubs, it’s impossible for clubs to keep the young stars which is a real shame IMO

It would be amazing if a Moneyball approach could work in football, but I suppose the big difference between the rich teams and the others is that they can do that PLUS spend loads more money on fitness, nutrition, preparation etc.
I'm sure there's a difference in size between numbers of analytical staff, the technology they have etc at Man City, than at other clubs.

I also saw this photo tweeted the other day of Nuno's Manager of the Month award, with a backroom staff which was HUUUUGEEEE...