Stick or twist?

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Bruce Wayne

Bruce Wayne

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It's clear that many parts of the team simply havn't functioned well this season and most weeks see fans asking for certain players to be dropped and others moved up to the first team.

So, my question is this, will the team benefit more in the long term from a regular changing of personnel in the hope that both players will be kept on their toes from the competition and new incumbents will take their chances better than those they replaced.

OR

Will the team benefit more in the long term if they stick with what Moyes perceives to be the best eleven in the belief that both a run in the side will give the players a chance to find form and that regular time spent playing together will help the team to gel?
 

I know it's probably not one of the options. But I don't think that there is any alternative (currently) to a degree of rotation, given extra cup competitions.

I would look to see our strongest team (as opposed to players) played in Europe and non-European-week PL matches.

Our second-strongest team should be played in UEFA weeks for PL matches (in other words, a changed-out selection still with an A-list team core - probably changing strikers and shuffling defence and midfield in a minor way).

Our domestic cup matches should this year be used to give non-playing senior squad members (Wessels, Valente plus whoever else misses out) a good run, and introduce likely lads (Vidarsson, Skywalker, Boyle, Irving, etc.).

I don't think this is the way to be most successful in the Premier League. We have seen already that a hopefully injury-free ever-present A team is the way for us to work that. But Europe is what the team plays for and, certainly in my case, is what I see as the most important part of this season, so it's something that we have to compromise about for this season (and hopefully for the next as well!).
 
*taps microphone...testing testing... hmm (cough) ehem..

I believe we shouldnt rotate like Rafael, but there has to be a happy medium. Players do get jaded/tired, hungover, whatever, so you gotta know the guy that steps in is going to do the business.

Its a tough game for Moyes, because in upgading the squad he's had selection dilemmas. More notably though, its the players coming off the bench that have been making the differences. He played Johnson in a month of Sundays and he didnt score. He comes off the bench and he bangs one in. Anichebe comes off the bench and wins it against Heavy Metal. (he did come off the bench right?)

This to me smacks of a healthy, competative squad. Next off the bench to up the tempo will be Jags. Dont worry he can do much better and when he gets the chance he will. Cahill and Vaughn will be like two hornbags on heat when they are fit enough to play. Id hate to be the opposition when they are released from the treatment room. Its gunna get messy.

But there you have it. Rotation not through necessity but through competition. If your not going to do it, theres a bloke sitting on the bench chomping through the teeth to step right in there and punch on.

The inherant danger in this is not recognising the player is doing well, and swapping him before he can have the impact. Osman for Pienaar against the Barcodes could fall into this catagory. It coulda been Pienaar to make the difference in the end, or he could have close down that son of a Turkish skid mark Emre.

But thats why Allardyce gets paid the big bucks, and Moyes is on the verge of getting paid the big bucks.
 

It's difficult to approach the issue with any degree of science as we simply don't have the raw data to play with, but, one trend that seems common amongst leading managers is to rotate certain positions an awful lot more than others.

At Chelsea for instance John Terry and Ricardo Carvalho very rarely miss games. The reasons for this are perhaps two fold. Firstly it's perhaps reasonable to assume that centre backs don't run as much as other players so don't develop the fatigue witnessed elsewhere in the side. Secondly, and this was largely the point of this thread, I suspect managers appreciate that defenders have to work as a unit, they have to develop an instinctive understanding so that they can work together effectively.

Now, it could also be argued that the holding midfielder also fits into this category. Makalele for instance was a player that was never rested outside of the Carling Cup or other meaningless cup ties. Obviously as he has become older this hasn't been possible but at his peak he played pretty much every week. Again, one can perhaps assume that the toll on your legs of playing in this role isn't huge because you're largely moving laterally rather than up and down. With positioning being such a huge part of the role it's also worth noting that this player has to be familiar with his role in the side and the positions he needs to take up.

Which brings me back to my original post. I like competition, I really do and I firmly believe that you have to give the opportunity for those outside the first team to come in and hold down a place if they perform well.

But, I also believe that most of our defensive problems this season have come from the regular chopping and changing of our personnel in the centre of midfield and in defence. It's perhaps no coincidence that our best seasons under Moyes came at a time when a) we didn't have many squad players, and b) we had precious few injuries, both of which led to a very settled side. Now obviously fatigue plays a part and having fresh legs on hand is a big advantage towards the end of the season, but I think the team will really benefit when we start playing the spine of the team on a regular basis.
 
first off , i dont like rotation for the sake of rotation.
i dont think it forces anyone to up there game.
players who play well and are then dropped due to rotation also lose moral.

the way a team should be picked is simple.
you pick your best formation to fit your best 11 players
you then play the best 11 players IN THERE BEST POSITIONS !
if any player doesnt perform , they are out.
if the replacement performs , he stays in untill his performance drops.( age , value and past events dont come into it)

if a position is constantly replaced time and time again = atleast 1 players out - 1 players in during the next transfer window.

if the whole team is changed time and time again = the managers standard of player tranfers and/or his tactics and man management have to be questioned.


our best 11 on paper imo...

...................howard
..........yobo jagielka lescott
neville.............................baines
........arteta gravesen cahill
...............aj ........yak
 
Not keen on rotation like Onionhead practises across the way, but we need to settle on a squad from which the is picked. Some though pick themselves like Howard, Lescott, Yobo, Arteta, just cannot leave these out.

Having said that there are some who I would like to see go on their merry way, like Osman, I do not think he is good enough for our ambition. Also ? over VDM and Valente.
 
Our squad is be no means big enough to rotate in the way the Onion does, he averages 6 per game and on one occasion 11. He actually forgot harry Kewell was still at the club:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We must utilise when necessary but lets not get a head of ourselves(y)
 
Strongest 11 for the league.

Use Europe and Cup competitions to get playing time for players a bit farther down the pecking order.

Doesn't mean you completely turn your roster over for Europe and the Cups, but that you get players like Valente who can contribute but haven't had much of a chance to play with some of the regulars.

You've got to find some time for them on the pitch or they will get rusty.
 

My thoughts would depend on the game.

Have a fixed first 11 against tougher teams, and let the "underdogs" show their measure against weaker opponents to see if they have what it takes to battle into the first 11.

That would give the first 11 the confidence of the coach and show that they have the faith of him as well. Also it might make them more focused on the games instead of giving their all in practise to get into the team.. I almost get the feeling sometime that they think they've won when they're on the lineup and therefore relaxes a bit when the game starts.. thereby explaining our horrid first halfs.

All players (I think) have said that they know they have to fight to get into the squad so why not giving them a loose pickingorder? We all have it for the strikers and so on anyway. It fluctuates depending on how they fare on the pitch, sure. But still. Any player not in the first 11, will give their all to take a place there and logically would give their best at the game as well just to prove that he belongs there.
 
No one has really answered my question, or at least I don't think they have, my apologies if I've missed it.

Take the situation with Yobo at the moment, and perhaps to an equal/lesser extent Neville and Jagielka. All three would probably make the 'dream team', all three are playing terribly at the moment.

Do you drop them and hope their replacement does a better job or do you presume that their woes are largely a result of unfamiliarity with their team mates and stick with them?

As I said in an earlier post it seems rare for the top teams to change the centre backs unless injury/suspensions strike. Ferdinand and Vidic play nearly every match, Terry and Carvalho likewise.

This season we seem to have gone with the shuffle option with Stubbs coming into defence, Lescott moving to left back, Hibbert in and out of the side, Carsley/Neville/Jagielka all shuffling in and out of the holding role.

I say again, I'm not really concerned too much about rotation for fitness purposes, putting reserves in for lesser games is pretty much a given over a long season. What I'm talking about is rotation due to form.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
No one has really answered my question, or at least I don't think they have, my apologies if I've missed it.

Take the situation with Yobo at the moment, and perhaps to an equal/lesser extent Neville and Jagielka. All three would probably make the 'dream team', all three are playing terribly at the moment.

Do you drop them and hope their replacement does a better job or do you presume that their woes are largely a result of unfamiliarity with their team mates and stick with them?

As I said in an earlier post it seems rare for the top teams to change the centre backs unless injury/suspensions strike. Ferdinand and Vidic play nearly every match, Terry and Carvalho likewise.

This season we seem to have gone with the shuffle option with Stubbs coming into defence, Lescott moving to left back, Hibbert in and out of the side, Carsley/Neville/Jagielka all shuffling in and out of the holding role.

I say again, I'm not really concerned too much about rotation for fitness purposes, putting reserves in for lesser games is pretty much a given over a long season. What I'm talking about is rotation due to form.
Click to expand...

My thoughts..

Yobo.. need someone beside him that takes charge and direct him in the defence.. so Lescott need to take charge and become the leader in the back.

I'd say stick with the first 11 and give them the chance to get to know eachother in competitive matches... friendlies is one thing, and definately not the same. If one of the reserves hit a splendid patch of form (McFadden currently) Give him some chances at start or sub him in early in the second half or even at halftime.
 
We should be playing with Lescott and Stubbs at centre half based on merit. They keep their position until they start to lose form/get injured then the likes of Yobo and Jagielka should be chomping at the bit to come in and perform.

This rotation thing is a European disease and rarely works in the British game. You should be playing your best 11.
 

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