Should Martinez be sacked? (Post Crystal Palace poll)

[davek]

Tbh dave there's a big difference. For a start gone has the playing out from the back at every opportunity. Of course we're still doing that, but certainly not at all costs like we were doing. We are mixing it up and trying to get it into the midfield boys quicker or look more direct to Lakaku or the wide men.

We passed more in our defensive third against Palace than any time since the Southampton away defeat (barring the Stoke game at home).

The major difference we've seen of late is a tighter defensive diplay. Defenders have been more switched on. That's been the key.

 

[catcherintherye]

We passed more in our defensive third against Palace than any time since the Southampton away defeat (barring the Stoke game at home).

The major difference we've seen of late is a tighter defensive display. Defenders have been more switched on. That's been the key.

I think we are getting more crosses into the box for Lukaku too. I do wonder though if this isn't a tactical/strategic difference or whether we are now just playing better and with more confidence offensively. I doubt Martinez tactically set out to starve Lukaku of service, it was a product of poor performances.

You are spot on about the defence though. Jagielka at times this season has been below par and looked a bit uninterested. At Palace though not only did he play very well, but I liked the way he was shouting at players not doing their jobs. We have needed this for some time. Him and Stones are quite no nonsense centre halves, Stones is already quite vocal and with Jagielka providing a lead next to him it will make a big difference to our defensive displays.

I never thought we were incapable of keeping clean sheets. I think what happened was we developed a big of a fatalistic attitude that it was inevitable and acceptable to concede. In truth not helped by Martinez saying he'd rather lose 5-4 than draw 0-0. It looks like as a club, we have reversed that a bit over the last few games. In 90 minutes we have conceded 3 goals in our last 5 games. That gives us confidence to move forward.

 

[davek]

I think we are getting more crosses into the box for Lukaku too. I do wonder though if this isn't a tactical/strategic difference or whether we are now just playing better and with more confidence offensively. I doubt Martinez tactically set out to starve Lukaku of service, it was a product of poor performances.

You are spot on about the defence though. Jagielka at times this season has been below par and looked a bit uninterested. At Palace though not only did he play very well, but I liked the way he was shouting at players not doing their jobs. We have needed this for some time. Him and Stones are quite no nonsense centre halves, Stones is already quite vocal and with Jagielka providing a lead next to him it will make a big difference to our defensive displays.

I never thought we were incapable of keeping clean sheets. I think what happened was we developed a big of a fatalistic attitude that it was inevitable and acceptable to concede. In truth not helped by Martinez saying he'd rather lose 5-4 than draw 0-0. It looks like as a club, we have reversed that a bit over the last few games. In 90 minutes we have conceded 3 goals in our last 5 games. That gives us confidence to move forward.

The defending has been a scandal all season. Whatever way you want to play it didn't matter because the foundations were built on sand.

Jagielka has been at the heart of that for me. He's the captain and an ever present in this season's well below par performances. He's sleepwalked through matches - and post match interviews for that matter. Not good enough. He had a good game at the weekend, but apart from that and a couple of decent performances around the last derby he has been horrendous.

I'd have no hesitation in clearing him out of the club in June.

 

[catcherintherye]

The defending has been a scandal all season. Whatever way you want to play it didn't matter because the foundations were built on sand.

Jagielka has been at the heart of that for me. He's the captain and an ever present in this season's well below par performances. He's sleepwalked through matches - and post match interviews for that matter. Not good enough. He had a good game at the weekend, but apart from that and a couple of decent performances around the last derby he has been horrendous.

I'd have no hesitation in clearing him out of the club in June.

I can't really disagree with any of that, perhaps only quibbling the last part of it.

I suppose I see Jagielka as quite a nice man, and I also see Martinez as a nice well mannered man. I think there is much to admire in this, but I think between them it led to a bit of a culture whereby people weren't taking responsibility for defensive lapses. However I do think Martinez likes Jagielka. You only need to hear how he talks about him and the affection in his voice he speaks about him after the derby last time to see he has a lot of respect for him.

I don't think Martinez is going to change too much, and I don't think he should. I think his friendly, positive and polite personality has gone a long way in allowing particularly our younger players to develop and improve. To develop young players, and give them confidence that is very important. However that cannot be extended to our senior pro's, the Barry's, Jagielka's, Distins, Howards of this world. They should be the bad cop to Martinez's good cop.

I suppose I hope we see more of the Jagielka at Crystal Palace. Grabbing people by the scruff of the neck and telling them they are not performing well enough. If he does this, he will be an important player for us going forward. I also think, having taken away Howard and Distin next to him suddenly he looks a better centre half as well. He needs to set the standards for the younger defenders around him, but also for Besic and McCarthy in front of him. I saw the start of that on Saturday and hope it continues.

If that doesn't continue then I think you are right, we should probably look to move him on. I suppose the general point I am making is that for me Jagielka isn't a "bag egg" I just think he has got a bit carried away with some of the general outlook of Martinez as club captain, which has been detrimental to the defence. I also think with his mates throwing a strop that's been difficult for him. Lets hope we have the Jagielka at Cyrstal Palace back, bollocking people for not doing their jobs.

 

[Titus Bramble]

The defending has been a scandal all season. Whatever way you want to play it didn't matter because the foundations were built on sand.

Jagielka has been at the heart of that for me. He's the captain and an ever present in this season's well below par performances. He's sleepwalked through matches - and post match interviews for that matter. Not good enough. He had a good game at the weekend, but apart from that and a couple of decent performances around the last derby he has been horrendous.

I'd have no hesitation in clearing him out of the club in June.

What if he maintained his performance levels from Saturday for the rest of the season?

 

[davek]

What if he maintained his performance levels from Saturday for the rest of the season?

Then he'd just be doing his job and I'd wonder why he hadn't been doing it all season.

We cant afford to have characters like this about, apparently turning up and pulling their finger out only to avert a disaster or personal criticism.

The fact that this feller is captain adds salt to the wound.

 

[davek]

I can't really disagree with any of that, perhaps only quibbling the last part of it.

I suppose I see Jagielka as quite a nice man, and I also see Martinez as a nice well mannered man. I think there is much to admire in this, but I think between them it led to a bit of a culture whereby people weren't taking responsibility for defensive lapses. However I do think Martinez likes Jagielka. You only need to hear how he talks about him and the affection in his voice he speaks about him after the derby last time to see he has a lot of respect for him.

I don't think Martinez is going to change too much, and I don't think he should. I think his friendly, positive and polite personality has gone a long way in allowing particularly our younger players to develop and improve. To develop young players, and give them confidence that is very important. However that cannot be extended to our senior pro's, the Barry's, Jagielka's, Distins, Howards of this world. They should be the bad cop to Martinez's good cop.

I suppose I hope we see more of the Jagielka at Crystal Palace. Grabbing people by the scruff of the neck and telling them they are not performing well enough. If he does this, he will be an important player for us going forward. I also think, having taken away Howard and Distin next to him suddenly he looks a better centre half as well. He needs to set the standards for the younger defenders around him, but also for Besic and McCarthy in front of him. I saw the start of that on Saturday and hope it continues.

If that doesn't continue then I think you are right, we should probably look to move him on. I suppose the general point I am making is that for me Jagielka isn't a "bag egg" I just think he has got a bit carried away with some of the general outlook of Martinez as club captain, which has been detrimental to the defence. I also think with his mates throwing a strop that's been difficult for him. Lets hope we have the Jagielka at Cyrstal Palace back, bollocking people for not doing their jobs.

I just dont think he's a strong enough character to have at the heart of defence or for the club to have as its captain.

He can defend - and goal line clearances like that on Saturday are the type of last ditch defending he does well. But he's a very limited player for the system Martinez prefers.

It makes sense to me that he's moved on in the summer. Not commanding enough and not talented enough. I dont see why we should settle for that, tbh.

 

[catcherintherye]

I just dont think he's a strong enough character to have at the heart of defence or for the club to have as its captain.

He can defend - and goal line clearances like that on Saturday are the type of last ditch defending he does well. But he's a very limited player for the system Martinez prefers.

It makes sense to me that he's moved on in the summer. Not commanding enough and not talented enough. I dont see why we should settle for that, tbh.

Well I think that's true, he's certainly not a Martinez style defender. In the end though it will come down to money. I suspect we will lose Distin, Alcaraz, Peinaar and possibly Osman in the summer. These will bring no money in. Perhaps Mirallas will go for (I hope) close to 10 million.

To lose Jagielka as well (particularly for under 10 million) would leave us having to buy at least 2 new centre halves and in all honesty I am not sure where we would get the money to do this from.

In an ideal world we would go out and buy Van Dijk and Reid to play next to Stones, and possibly someone experienced like a Daniel Agger. I am not sure we will have the money to do so though. In the compromised situation we operate in I hope Jagielka can become more commanding, and continue to play as he did at Palace, as it made a huge difference.

 

[The Equaliser]

We passed more in our defensive third against Palace than any time since the Southampton away defeat (barring the Stoke game at home).

The major difference we've seen of late is a tighter defensive diplay. Defenders have been more switched on. That's been the key.

Probably because there was more time to do so.

It's one thing passing it around the back when you are not under pressure. It may be a bit boring but it also could be a means to an end.

But it's quite another trying to pass your way out of trouble in your defensive third when the opposition are putting you under pressure. It leads to individual errors and is the reason we have the 2nd worst defensive record in the league this season.

If he hasn't learnt his lesson from this then the problems aren't going to go away and we'll be back in square one before long.

And no-one wants that.

 

[RaleighBlue]

And Real Madrid and Chelsea and City.

Works both ways.

If we had their money I'd be all for firing Martinez and hiring the current flavor of the month until we get it right.

We don't. Stability is key. Martinez should only be shown the door in one of two cases:
1) Relegation or the immediate threat thereof.
2) Sustained proof that he doesn't have it.

Sustained is not half a season. We've had a dire run of form. Much like last spring we had a ridiculously good run of form.

Let's see what happens in Europa and hope he's learned from this for season 3. If he hasn't, then the worrying can begin in earnest.

 

[Ashtonian]

funny thing is you cant start judging the manager again until the run after the chelsea game.

Derby, we lose then no big deal, we lose them generally. We lose chelsea, well clearly not a failing on our part as most teams will lose that game this year.

The run after it until the end of march is vital and could signify our season. However 3 points on saturday and the season looks better than a week ago.

 

[mrb85]

funny thing is you cant start judging the manager again until the run after the chelsea game.

Derby, we lose then no big deal, we lose them generally. We lose chelsea, well clearly not a failing on our part as most teams will lose that game this year.

The run after it until the end of march is vital and could signify our season. However 3 points on saturday and the season looks better than a week ago.

Win either of the next two and the relegation threat has gone. With 29 pts in the bag we'd only probably need 8 or 9 pts from the remaining 13 games and even Martinez at his worst would get that.

 

[Brownie86]

He could do with a swift kick in the shin and told about a plan B or making subs before the 80th minute like he did last season, otherwise leave him to it.

 

[daz4matty]

Win either of the next two and the relegation threat has gone. With 29 pts in the bag we'd only probably need 8 or 9 pts from the remaining 13 games and even Martinez at his worst would get that.

Next two games will be a struggle especially the way we have been playing.
Just hope we start to pick up some wins and move up the table.
The football this season has been turgid I hope he gets us attacking again at speed.

 

[Stonesy]

The defending has been a scandal all season. Whatever way you want to play it didn't matter because the foundations were built on sand.

Jagielka has been at the heart of that for me. He's the captain and an ever present in this season's well below par performances. He's sleepwalked through matches - and post match interviews for that matter. Not good enough. He had a good game at the weekend, but apart from that and a couple of decent performances around the last derby he has been horrendous.

I'd have no hesitation in clearing him out of the club in June.

Jagielka needs his hand held and always has done. In the physical aspects of defending, right across the spectrum he is generally excellent - pace, strength, tackles, headers, blocks, last-ditch challenges - but mentally and positionally he is hopeless. The Lescott/Jags partnership was a fortress because Lescott had an effortless confidence about him. Heitinga (for all his faults) & Stones (for all his youth) are the same: they provide leadership, organisation, intuitive positioning, communication, and actually, balls. They are willing to be brave in a different sense - not throwing themselves in front of shots, but taking an extra touch or passing it short instead of smashing it out, or being confident enough that they'll win the second ball instead of making every first one a 50-50.

Jagielka and Distin are two of the same, and they never complemented each other. Individually there was hardly a striker who could get past them but as a unit they were often at 6s and 7s. Their complimenting mentalities are the worst: all smiles, jokes, back-slapping and high-fiving as they trip over their own feet and give assists to opposition strikers or smash the ball out of play for no reason or panic and treat the ball like a hot potato when we're in possession. These elements, I agree, have been harmful for a while. We should have all known when Jagielka laughed in Lukaku's face at the concept we might be a challenging force in football that this is never a man who should have captained Everton.